OM8 Tournament Incident

Omaha 8 Tournament Incident – I would like an opinion:


After the fourth remaining table broke in an OM8 tournament, there was a lull in the action when players were reassigned to the remaining three tables. A new player to my table had the big blind and only posted $300 in tournament chips when the big blind should have been $500 (there was no small blind at this point). The dealer did not initially catch this mistake. The UTG player called $300 and I (the player in 4th position) also called the $300. The player in 5th position had not acted yet. At the point the dealer remembered that the BB should have been $500 and requested each player who had acted to put in an additional $200. The players did what the dealer said and each added $200 to the pot, and at this point the player in sixth position raised. I wondered if the dealer did the right thing my requesting each player to complete the $500 bet.


After the tournament I mentioned this incident to the tournament director (the tournament boss). I mentioned (to the tournament boss) that I really wanted to take my $300 back (i.e., not call the pot) because I was low on chips and would have not initially called a $500 bet. After explaining what happened the tournament boss said: "The dealer should not have requested the big blind and the two calling players to put in the additional $200, and each calling player had to continue playing the hand (before the flop)for the $300 bet. That is the stakes were frozen at the initial $300 because the dealer did not correct the BB before action had occurred.


I can see where things can get complicated when the dealer doesn't run the game like it should be run and mistakes occur. Especially in the later stages of a tournament where the amount of chips in each player's stack is very critical. My question is: Should the dealer have requested the big blind and the calling players to add $200 each after the action had occurred?


I hope I explained this incident correctly and it can be understood….

I don't understand how it can happen that not only one, but two players called for a wrong amount. It is the responsibility of every player, not just the dealer, to pay attention to those things.


As for the ruling, I think that the dealer did the right thing. It would be unfair to the other players to chance the stakes just b/c 3 players before them made an error. After all, they will have to post the full amount themselves, so they have a right to the same amount of blind money in the pot when they are not in the blinds.


cu


Ignatius

Ignatius,


Thanks for the reply.


You replied,” I don't understand how it can happen that not only one, but two players called for a wrong amount. It is the responsibility of every player, not just the dealer, to pay attention to those things.”


The error probably occurred because there was a lull in the tournament action when players were seated from the broken table. This may have caused the dealer and the BB to forget what the correct stakes were.... The BB just came from another table and the stakes were just increased a minute before causing the Big Blind to put in the wrong amount.


You also said:


“As for the ruling, I think that the dealer did the right thing. It would be unfair to the other players to chance the stakes just b/c 3 players before them made an error. After all, they will have to post the full amount themselves, so they have a right to the same amount of blind money in the pot when they are not in the blinds.


cu"


Ignatius, it is very difficult to be fair to all players in situations like the one I tried to describe – very difficult…. There should be a consistent set of rules that apply to tournament situations. Tournament situations are different than a ring game (also called a live game). In my case, the dealer compounded the mistake by not immediately correcting the amount required for the big blind before the action began. In the latter stages of poker tournaments, mistakes can be very critical, especially for players with small stacks – therefore a known set of rules should apply and not be arbitrary and subject to the whims of a dealer who allows mistakes to occur. When a critical mistake occurs, the dealer should halt the play and immediately get assistance from the tournament director.


I repeat: I feel that mistakes like this are very unfortunate and especially so in the latter stages of tournaments when the player’s chip stack size is very important.


In the past, we have all seen where mistakes or rule interpretations have changed the outcome of many competitive events (football, baseball, basketball, etc.). The main thing most of us desire is a consistent set of rules and a consistent and honest interpretation for these rules.

-----------


There are things I can't say here because the same person made another drastic mistake that bombed me out of a tournament in the past. I do not hold a grudge for this person but I feel I have a right to express myself. This person -- I hope does not read this post or relate it to me.


Bill

Bill,


The problem is that I have seen this exact situation happen where a known angle shooter called for 400 when the required amount to call was 600, and then took his money back when the next player raised, saying "Oh, 600 is it, I wouldn't have called that" - yeah right.


I am not suggesting that you were trying to gain an advantage, however the dealer has done the right thing IMO, and you are just unlucky.


Mistakes happen and there are a million situations that rules can't cover to the last detail. In the end you just have to look out for yourself.


Andy.

> the stakes were just increased a minute before


I see. If it has been the first hand in a new level, it would probably have been ok to play one more hand for the old stakes (I still like the dealer's ruling more), but in no case should the two callers have been allowed to retire their bets, for the reasons Andy mentioned in his post.


> There should be a consistent set of rules that apply to tournament situations.


You're right, but it's hard to cover all situations and somtimes you simply have to resort to (imperfect) human judgement and sometimes this can be a good thing.


e.g. I remember a situation where an old lady claimed to already having posted her BB but that the dealer by mistake pushed it to the player who won the previous hand which set beside her. Nobody had witnessed one way or another and the floorman made a ruling that she would have to bring up half the BB and everybody was happy with that decision. No written rule would have allowed the floorman to make this ruling and he would have had to decide (or more correctly, guess) if the lady was right or not. Still everybody at the table agreed that it was by far the best way to handle the situation.


> When a critical mistake occurs, the dealer should halt the play and immediately get assistance from the tournament director.


True, but it would have been the right of every player at the table to demand a ruling of the floorman. By failing to do so, you implicitly agreed to the dealer's decision.


Ultimately, I think that it doesn't matter much. As long as decisions are not consitently biased towards certain players, a ruling can be compared to a chip raise or to drawing a new seat: You can get into the BB or you can get on the button, but in the long run, it will even out.


cu


Ignatius

OM8 Incident: (blinds were $300 & $500 but only one BB when incident occurred because of the seating situation)


Dear Andy,


There was no angle(s) involved in this incident. I knew the BB player well (he is a straight shooter), and plays at least half his hands in OM8 ring games (there is nothing to get away with). There was no raise as of yet when the dealer corrected the error. My error was playing the hand in the first place -- I made a half-hearted call of $300 in 5th position when I had about $2000 in my stack, and I did this after another player had called for $300 in early position. I would have never made the call if I was aware (I forgot) that the blinds had just been raised to SB: $300, BB: $500. I guess everybody forgot before the dealer remembered. I never complained about this incident during the hand or at the tournament table – I was completely silent – I thought about trying to take my $300 call out after the error was corrected: that’s all but I didn’t do anything.


After the tournament was well over, I mentioned the incident to the tournament director. His reply was: “The accepted action of $300 stays “ (which you Andy don’t agree with); “ the callers cannot take their call bets back because they accepted the action” (which you ‘Andy’ do agree with), “a raiser can then raise the $300 by the correct amount of $500, and all further bets (of course) will be what they should be.”


I have not held a grudge for this dealer and I enjoy exchanging poker news or computer news with this dealer (I won’t mentioned the gender of dealer). But I have a memory, and two years ago I was in a holdem tournament with the same tournament director and the tournament director’s assistant at that time was the same dealer mentioned in the recent OM8 tournament incident. I was down to two big bets after I had just completed both blinds. This same dealer then the tournament assistant director arbitrarily (not a random selection by dealing off) moves me to another table and forces me to immediately take the big blind. I protested to this assistant to no avail (again I made the mistake of not calling for the tournament director). I mentioned this incident to the tournament director; and the assistant was fired from his job as helping out in the tournaments and went back to dealing; and this same dealer apologized to me for the mistake. It was a small potato tournament and I was never really uptight about what happened – I just think things should be done in a correct manner. I had no intention of getting this person releaved of his tournament duties and was sorry to hear about this, but he/she was still a dealer. About angles….


I have never seen tournament players pull an angle to get there money back after under calling a bet – forward motion is binding. In ring games, players often pull their bet back when they forget it is a killed pot or if they claim they didn’t know the pot was raised (this isn’t usually an angle but it can be with some types of players – as you know).


About 20 years ago, an angle that I really hated often occurred in Kill games in Los Angles County where the Killer was last to act and was in early position. This angle really dimmed the action in many games and cost players with good hands lots of money. The Killer (in early position and really last to act) would say raise or actually raise in sequence position and later take the raise back because he/she was really last to act and raising out of position did not constitute a raise in Los Angeles County. Now Killers act in turn and angle type players cannot pull this crap.


Regards Bill