Getting Started

[deception5]

Hi all!

I've been playing poker online since August - starting at .05/.10 limit with $20 and now at .25/.50 with $130. I plan to continue playing limit ring games online.

I've also played a number of live single and 2 table NL tournaments with friends which I really enjoy and around 50 of the free party sit-n-go's. I would like to eventually play NL sit-n-go's (probably 10+1's at least to start) in addition to my limit games and so my question is what is the best way to make this transition? Any must read books? I have Ciaffone's No-limit and Sklansky's Tournament Poker on order and have read through the No-Limit stuff in Super System (and a bunch of other 2+2 limit books). Should I continue to play the free sit-n-go's and just keep trying to improve my game until I can show 35% or so ITM finishes? Are there some less expensive games I should start with instead or is the free experience valuable enough (or worthless)?

Thanks for your help!
D5

[McBandit]

In regards to SnGs specifically, there is not much literature published on them. The general concepts of tournament NL HE are good to know nonetheless. I havn't read Dan Harrington's new book, but I've heard there is a section on SnGs.

I think the best source of info for you is right here at 2+2. There is also some bad advice given on these forums, but after a while reading posts here you learn who the most respected posters are.

If you are looking to beat the 10+1s, I doubt you will find any published literature that would be more helpful than Aleomagus's "Beating 10+1s Strategy" thread, which brings together a ton of advice given by many of the best SnGers here. That strategy is tailored specifically to the PP blind and payout structure.

[tigerite]

Sorry to tell you, but the free SnG's are a waste of time. I tried to help a friend get started by playing those, it tends to be 4 or 5 handed after the first 3 hands, because of the lunatics. Hardly any cash SnG is like that, even at the $5 level.

[deception5]

Sounds good - I've checked out the strategy thread and try to keep up with the posts in this and the micro forum!

I figured the free sng's weren't that great, but I was under the impression that once the all-in crew was gone at the beginning that strategy could prevail. Was hoping it would at least help with my end game :-)

Thanks for your replies!
D5

[McBandit]

I suppose the free SnGs won't hurt, i just don't think they'll help much. It might at least get you familiar with the tourney format and blind structure, because understanding how that affects hand selection and aggression are absolutely crucial to beating the SnGs. I personally find the single biggest mistake that players make at the 10s is not changing their playing style as the blinds go up. I have literaly went form 1000 chips to 3000 without getting past the turn.

McBandit

[bismillahno]

I think there is some merit to playing the play money SnG's, as long as you're aware of the differences. I played roughly 250 play money tournaments at pokerroom before I was willing to actually put money into the real games. I found it was a great way to learn how to play to Aleo's guide and how you should be adjusting your play with time. You really can't steal blinds much at that level, and it encourages you to just fold into the money but it can be good to learn the early level tightness you need to do well at real money. There are a few semi-decent players in these games too, who'll give you a bit of a game heads up at times.

I tracked all my results for the last 150 or so, and as my ROI got up to about 80% I figured it was time to give it a go for real. I was basically a winning player straight away this way, without having to risk any real money in the learning process. Just don't think you can sustain your play money numbers in real money games. There aren't too many 4 way all ins first hand in real tournaments, sadly... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[El Maximo]

I got started playing SnGs at Pacific Poker. You make a deposit to gain the bonus. Than withdraw the money and play off the bonus. You wont work any bonus off playing the SnG but you can keep any profit. I actually withdrew all the money a few months later and they let me keep the bonus even though I didnt work it off yet. The games are weak and they have 2$ and 5$ 1 and 2 table SnGs. There are a few other sites that have 1 and 5 dollar SnGs like UB.

[deception5]

Pacific is actually where I've been playing my ring games. Maybe I'll have to start playing in some of those inexpensive s&g's there when I get my bankroll up a bit more.

Thanks all for the help!
D5

[PE101]

I agree. Same goes for the ring play.

It might be okay to use it learn where the buttons are, but not for "practice".

[se2schul]

My girlfriend plays the free SNGs. She is ITM almost 100%. You can usually get ITM just by folding your way in... no joke. The bubble usually bursts with the blinds at 25/50 or lower.

I'd say they're a waste of time.

ss

[lorinda]

Sorry to tell you, but the free SnG's are a waste of time. I tried to help a friend get started by playing those, it tends to be 4 or 5 handed after the first 3 hands, because of the lunatics. Hardly any cash SnG is like that, even at the $5 level.



I would disagree with the waste of time element here.

If you can't beat them for a decent ROI then you are _definitely_ not ready for cash.

Also they will provide good experience at being short stacked near the bubble.

Just don't expect your ROI to translate when you play cash, but use them to experiment a little with which hands are worth pushing 4-5 handed, and which ones are not.

Lori

[jojobinks]

you asked about essential reading.

-theory of poker
-cloutier (supertight, which is actually great for the 10+1 sngs)
-everything else. my first year playing, i read pretty much everything, and kept them around to reread.

i agree that the play moneys are stupid. but i still play them all the time if i don't have time to concentrate, am messing around the house, or whatever. they are still poker, even if it's down to 5 or 6 in 15 minutes. it's good practice playing the shortstack, b/c playing tight you'll always be ITM, but almost always as a severe short stack.

i agree, if you can't make it there, you can't make it anywhere.

[The Yugoslavian]

2+2 Reading List (use search function liberally, especially the Older Archives) in no particular order:

Eastbay
Can be heavy on the math but author of many great lists and tools. He always cuts to the heart of the matter.

PrayingMantis
My personal favorite,/images/graemlins/grin.gif -- he's very into meta-analsysis which applies more to higher buyins but I've really improved from his discussions and insight.

Jason Strasser (strassa2)
Brings up great discussion topics -- good material on needing to be aggressive on bubble -- 'any two win baby.' /images/graemlins/wink.gif

ZeeJustin
Sometimes just says 'push' or 'fold' without reasoning but when he does lay out his reasoning, it is top notch, /images/graemlins/ooo.gif.

AleoMagus
His guide is great and is always involved in the most valuable SNG 2+2 discussions. Plus for most of his posts he was not always playing the 50+5 buyins -- so he's an invaluable contributer to 10+1 - 30+3 theory.

IrieGuy
Very good grasp of game theory and always has helpful/good insights.

Daliman
Very successful $215 grinder -- he divulges all sorts of information about himself and his play that offers a unique glimpse into what a pro SNG player is thinking.

Frozen
This guy cracks me up and has several $215 SNGs for view on teamfu.freeshell.org. He hasn't posted much in a while though so you may need to peruse the older archives.

Gigabet
Started posting recently and has a few insightful posts already.

These posters' posts mainly reside in the Older Archives:

Bozeman
Some posts are math-heavy and incomprehensible, /images/graemlins/confused.gif, without a firm grasp of probability, etc. However, it's a huge shame he doesn't post much anymore b/c almost all of his posts are great.

Stagemusic
Great SNG guide way back when -- although his earning rate thing is WAY off. He has some good SNG advice though if you can find it.

There are many others as you will find out on your own. I think for SNG play this should be your reading list (Cloutier, Caffione, and Sklansky are good too but they're no PrayingMantis, Bozeman, and Eastbay!).

Good luck! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[deception5]

Wow, thanks! Some great information here!

[Turk]

I spent a year at PSO, which is a is a "play money" site and while it is different play from real in many ways, it is still the same in many. You pay a monthly/annual fee, so it is a bit better than the freerolls.
I play alot on Party in the $10+1's and there are plenty of folks there that play like it's play money sshhh...dont tell 'em it's not.

There are people that want to gamble it up, and aren't very serious about results on both....and for all our sakes, I hope that never changes.


It was invaluable experience time for me at a price I could afford. And frankly, my wife wasn't the biggest poker fan on the planet either and I highly doubt she would have been too thrilled with me playing in the begining if it weren't in a practice enviroment, until I could show some results there first. /images/graemlins/blush.gif