Final Table PL HE hand

Hi all,


I'm playing in an online Pot-Limit HE tournament and I'm at the final table. 86 players started and there is 129 000 chips in play. 8 players remain, all in the money, with a relatively flat structure. Blinds are 600 and 1200 and I'm in the BB with the illustrious 7c3s and T25024 before posting (2nd in chip position). All fold to the SB who has T14080 before posting and raises the minimum to a total of 2400. I call. I thought it was close (maybe it's not), considering his stack, but he only raised the minimum. If he raises more, I fold. The hand is crap but I'm likely not dominated, I have position and I cover him.


Flop is 3c4h2s and he bets 2400 and I call. Most likely he has overcards and I'm good. Plus he bet only half the pot.


Turn is 6s he bets 7200 and I call. I did not like calling, frankly, I thought he would have shut down when I called on the flop if he only had overcards. I called because it was possible I still had the best hand, I also had a gutshot and a pair.


Results later...


Comments?


Nicolas

Even though it's a minimum raise, I would tend to fold or reraise the max. I mean, if you're sure you're not dominated here, then he should fold to the reraise, right? And if you're not sure, then just fold yourself.


I will frequently call in spots like this, but not this late in the tourney with the stacks this small relative to the blinds. There just isn't enough play left for you to flop a pair, figure out you're behind, and get away from the hand correctly without putting in too many chips. In fact, after that flop, by the time you're sure you're beat, you're going to be potstuck, or close to it.


If you had 76 I would call preflop, because the hand has a chance to flop something like an open-ended straight draw plus a pair, or at least an open-ender where you know you can win 1/3 of the time even if behind. I would also call with hands that have more high card strength, so that when you flop a pair it will more likely be the best pair.


But then again, if you're sure he doesn't dominate 73o, then why just call if you hold KJo?


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

> I call. I thought it was close


Unless this player just loves minimum raises, I would treat his bet not much differently than a usual raise. In fact, against some players I'd be rather inclinded to muck a marginal hand for a small than for a big raise as a minimum bet unsually only makes sense if he wants you to call and build a pot.


Also, you are 2nd in chips and I assume that there are some smaller stacks around than the SB, so I would fold and wait for a better situation.


> Flop is 3c4h2s and he bets 2400 and I call


If you aren't prepared to move in when you flop a pair on a rag flop, you should have mucked preflop. Calling here is by far the worst possible play: If you're behind, you will probably have to pay him off anyway as 1/3 of his stack is already in and if you are ahead, you just gave him a free card.


> Turn is 6s he bets 7200 and I call. I did not like calling, frankly


You cannot like any of your options, which is exactly why you should have moved in on the flop and avoid this nasty situation.


The gunshot you picked up makes this an all-in - calling is pointless here as your money will go in anyway, but if he has only overcards he might get away on the river unless he pairs up, so you have to charge him now. w/o the gunshot, I would prefer folding, as even if he is behind, an ace would give him 10 outs to beat you.


cu


Ignatius

Ignatius,


I don't know if you play online a lot, but minimum raises are very frequent. Usually, the players don't know any better, sometimes they are trapping, sometimes they simply don't want to invest more on a steal.


I may have misjudged my implied odds, I mean, I knew what they were, I just thought they were enough. Maybe not.


On the flop, I really don't think that calling is by far the worse play. I think raising, folding and calling all have merits. I'm either a 2:1 favorite against overcards or in bad shape against an overpair. What I want him to do is bet big on the turn as a bluff, or check. Most players will do one of these with still nothing on the turn. This way, I maximize my gain if indeed he holds overcards if I can get him to bet big. He's about a 7:1 dog to complete on the turn, if I can bet him out or get him to bluff big most of the times, then I like it. Or I can charge him by betting myself if he checks. Raising on the turn once he bets is simply pointless, he's not folding for an extra 2080 in a 20-25K pot.


Nicolas

Greg,


would you ever make a play like this at the final table?


And if yes, how big should the stacks be to make it worth it, in your opinion?


Thanks,


Nicolas

The river was another 3, he went all-in with his last 2080 and I, of course, called.


He showed AQo and I won.


As I wrote in Ignatius's reply, I probably made a mistake preflop. Hey, I'm still learning. I liked my flop and turn play and still do. Unless someone convinces me otherwise.


This hand gave me the fuel I needed to go on and win the tournament.


Nicolas

I'm not sure I'm following your dominated hand thing here.


I mean, AK does not dominate me, not in the sense I understand the term domination. Although I knew this girl once...just kidding...;-)


AK dominates AJ, T9 dominates 96 etc... If not then I mispoke.


"you're sure you're not dominated here, then he should fold to the reraise, right?"


well I don't know, if he holds AK, he does not dominate me, and he ain't folding.


"But then again, if you're sure he doesn't dominate 73o, then why just call if you hold KJo? "


Huh?


Nicolas

> What I want him to do is bet big on the turn as a bluff, or check.


What you should want is to take it down on the flop. If your opponent has an ace (havn't looked at the results yet) with another overcard he has a gunshot and you're less than a 2:1 favorite which means that he gets correct odds to call and you will lose money (about T500, EV-wise) if you don't get him to fold. But even if he has two other overcards, your additional EV is less than T3000, if he would always bluff on turn - not nearly enough to take a 1/4 risk to lose 3/5 of your stack.


> Raising on the turn once he bets is simply pointless, he's not folding for an extra 2080


Sure, but he might check-fold the river after your call e.g. if he has been semi-bluffing with a hand like JsTs and doesn't improve. In fact he would be correct to do so, as even with T2000 he has still hope to climb up one or two places while calling would be completely hopeless. This means that you might lose T2000 in profit when you are ahead, while having no chance to avoid doubling him up if you come in second.


cu


Ignatius

Ok, points well taken, I'll think about it.


Thanks,


Nicolas

Yes, I did a bad job with wording that post.


I agree with your definition of dominated.


If he dominates 73o, he has a pair 77 or higher, or A7 or A3 (or a bluff with a hand like J7). In any event, any hand that does not dominate 73o will be folded to a reraise, except AK and maybe AQ or some other good A. At least if he's a decent player (and if he's not a great player, who can smell your bluff and correctly call with KQ or some such).


Anyway, if you don't think he's strong, a reraise should be considered here, as you can raise enough to get him to fold. In fact, if you're pretty sure he's weak, I think an all-in reraise is far superior to a call. If he's weak, it's just too hard to figure out if the flop hit or missed him. At least if he's strong you'll have a better idea of where you're at postflop. ;-)


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Given your position in the tournament, there is no need to defend your blind here. Your 7,3o warrants to reason to call here. You have plenty of $$ to disregard this (perhaps) attempt to steal. You're going against another big stack which you would like to avoid.