Should I have folded this?

[Scuba Chuck]

It's early in the SNG, should I have folded to his all-in bet and chose another time to battle? <font color="red"> </font>


NL Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:7940189 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Thursday, December 16, 16:13:45 EDT 2004
Table Table 11752 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 5: HERO ( $1070 )
Seat 6: richen ( $1353 )
Seat 2: papa310 ( $1559 )
Seat 1: MuckThis2 ( $1513 )
Seat 10: xFU_PAY_MEx ( $670 )
Seat 7: callz ( $1265 )
Seat 3: ilbedipt ( $570 )
Trny:7940189 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif
HERO raises [100].
richen folds.
callz folds.
xFU_PAY_MEx calls [100].
MuckThis2 folds.
papa310 folds.
ilbedipt folds.
** Dealing Flop ** 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
HERO bets [200].
xFU_PAY_MEx is all-In.

HERO calls [370].
** Dealing Turn ** 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif
** Dealing River ** A /images/graemlins/club.gif
HERO shows 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif a pair of tens.
xFU_PAY_MEx shows A /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif a pair of aces.
xFU_PAY_MEx wins 1385 chips from the main pot with a pair of aces.

[PE101]

Hindsight is such a great thing!

I don’t have a problem with your play here. Too bad you lost this one…

[NegativeEV]

I look at this hand with two things in mind:

1.) SnG's at the $10 level are won with straight forward, simple plays. After the preflop raise and call there is T200 in the pot and your opponent has a stack of T570. Therefore, any meaningful bet on the flop will commit your opponent to the pot if he wants to continue. This tells me that you should push if you are going to bet on the flop (simple/straight forward).

2.) This is a great flop for your TT heads up, however there are not many cards that will fall on the turn that you like (any J,Q,K,A, or spade is bad- that is 21 bad turn cards). This tells me you should protect your hand and take down the pot OR AT LEAST make it "incorrect" for your opponent to call. This tells me you should push on the flop.

So... push the flop. Since you did not push the flop, you are now getting 2.6:1 on your call with an overpair, and you have to call.

FWIW, I'm certain that you would get called if you pushed on this flop given your opponents cards and stack, but you would be making your opponents odds as poor as possible on his call (he would be WRONG to call with only overcards or only a flush draw).

good luck,
-EV

[captZEEbo1]

One way to avoid these situations is to just limp TT at the 15/30 level...
You're pretty committed here to call though. The real question is, if he allined preflop would you call? I guess that's what it comes down to.

[tigerite]

Agreed, stop raising 10-10 UTG at level 2. As for the flop, I really disagree with pushing it against one opponent, because the chances of him having exactly two spades are pretty slim anyway, so bet 2/3rds of the pot as suggested in another post further down the board, it's unlikely he will then push, but if he does you are not so committed and can fold. But your preflop raise made the pot too big in the first place.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
After the preflop raise and call there is T200 in the pot and your opponent has a stack of T570. Therefore, any meaningful bet on the flop will commit your opponent to the pot if he wants to continue. This tells me that you should push if you are going to bet on the flop (simple/straight forward).


[/ QUOTE ]

I hear this argument quite a bit, and intuitively it makes sense, but it assumes that your opponent knows what "pot committed" means. Assume Villain is on a FD with no O/C, will he call an overbet push? Probably not. Will he call a full pot bet? At a low buyin SNG, yes, 9 times out of 10. WE know calling the pot is committing him so he might as well push over the top of a pot lead, but HE doesn't necessarily know that. Therefore, an overbet push just lets a sh*t FD get away here.

You want to bet the max that a draw will call here, period. If you think that's a push, fine. But I think you let a lot of weak FDs bail here by doing so.

Thoughts?

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
It's early in the SNG, should I have folded to his all-in bet and chose another time to battle?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont be silly. You raised a decent chunk preflop. Enough that he shouldn't have a set. And, becasue he didnt play back, you shluldnt fear a bigger PP.

I like the action. YOu played A-ok. he got lucky. 'Nuff said

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
I hear this argument quite a bit, and intuitively it makes sense, but it assumes that your opponent knows what "pot committed" means. Assume Villain is on a FD with no O/C, will he call an overbet push? Probably not. Will he call a full pot bet? At a low buyin SNG, yes, 9 times out of 10. WE know calling the pot is committing him so he might as well push over the top of a pot lead, but HE doesn't necessarily know that. Therefore, an overbet push just lets a sh*t FD get away here.

You want to bet the max that a draw will call here, period. If you think that's a push, fine. But I think you let a lot of weak FDs bail here by doing so.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic of wanting to draw a call from a FD that is "incorrect" based on the pot odds is fine. However, you are complicating a hand that should be played simply and straight-forward in a $10 SnG IMO. Part of the problem is that you can't know whether your opponent is on a FD, or an overcard draw, and if your pot sized bet is CALLED, you will have a difficult decision on the turn when an over card or flush card hits (which it will ~ 50% of the time). $10's are simple and are won with straight-forward plays. Giving yourself a tough decision on future streets is not the best play in this case IMO.

Given the pot, the opponents stack, the board and Hero's holding, I don't think this is the time to get creative. FWIW, I think Hero gets called by AK, AQ, and ANY flush draw here more times than not EVEN if he pushes. Make the simple play and give your opponents the opportunity to make the biggest mistake possible in this case.

Just my opinion,
-EV

[NegativeEV]

First, I agree that limping with TT in a full table from EP is generally the best play and I would generally NOT raise preflop in Hero's shoes.

However, assuming that the preflop raise was made and the flop came down as it did, I think you are missing the boat with your thought here:

[ QUOTE ]
As for the flop, I really disagree with pushing it against one opponent, because the chances of him having exactly two spades are pretty slim anyway, so bet 2/3rds of the pot as suggested in another post further down the board

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case the pot is T200 on the flop and you suggest betting 2/3 pot or T130. This gives opponent over 2.5:1 to call, and at the $10's I believe you will be called with many overcard hands AS WELL as flush draws. Granted, many of their calls would be mathmatically incorrect (good for Hero), HOWEVER, they make the turn very difficult to play. If the turn is any overcard or spade, Hero has a difficult play and will likely lose the pot (fold) to any bet. Given the stack size of the opponent, the board, and Hero's card, I really don't like a 2/3 pot bet on the flop in this case. It just complicates a simple hand.

If Hero had limped preflop, the post flop play is MUCH different IMO, and we don't have facts/circumstances to evaluate what the right post flop play would be in that scenario.

just my opinion,
-EV

[tigerite]

I can understand your point, really. I just think you don't have that much invested in the pot at this point, and so it's wise to "take one off" at the same time as ruining his odds as much as you can, then pushing on the turn. But both your play and mine have advantages and disadvantages, no disagreement on that one.