Hand from 2+2 8:00 SNG last night

[UMTerp]

Would appreciate comments on this one - thought it was a key hand for me. Unfortunately, I don't have the hand history, and and doing it from memory, but I'm pretty sure the details are 95% accurate, and I know the gist of the hand is there.

Situation - 7 or 8 players left at the final table. I've been playing really tight up to this point, I think I'd only seen two showdowns in my first 100 hands. Probably less than 10% flops seen. I had doubled through twice though, and was sitting at about 5000 chips, good for 2nd or third place.

The villian of this hand is the chip leader of the tourney - kokken2r. I have no idea if he's 2+2 or not, but if he is, maybe he could chime in (and possibly give more accurate details of the hand). He was sitting on my right at the first table, and was easily the most aggresive player at the table. I'd say he raised maybe a quarter of the time preflop, often taking down the pot uncontested. When the final table commenced, he again was on my right, though this time there was a player between us. He has about 6500 chips.

Blinds are 75-150.

PREFLOP: Folded arounf to kokken2r in the CO, he min raises to 300. Button folds. I have A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the SB. I'm getting fed up with all the raising, and decide to see a flop here. I call. Toro85 was in the big blind, has a smallish stack, and I was pretty sure he'd flod without a real decent hand. He was the only player at the table playing nearly at tight as myself at the time. Toro folds.

FLOP (750 in pot): Something in the neighborhood of T /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I know the ranks are right, and there were definitely two clubs. I check, kokken2r bets 750 (he led at nearly every flop he had raised preflop, I call to see what develops. Now that I think about it, I don't really like my call here. Would checkraising or leading out be better?

TURN (2250 in pot): Don't really remember the turn card, it was inconsequential. Assume it's the 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I check (again, should I lead out? - that doesn't seem like it'd flow right...), kokken bets 750 again, I call (???). There's now 3750 in the pot, and our stacks are ~3500 and ~5000 respectively.

RIVER (3750 in pot): 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Oooh - the scariest card in the deck!! I bet out 1200, intending to fold to a raise. kokken2r folds.

Last night was fun because of hands like this with deepish stacks. I almost never get to actually "play poker" when I'm grinding it out in my Turbos. I thought this hand had interesting decisions on every street. All comments welcome.

[ColdestCall]

That's a real interesting hand. Normally I would rather lead out with 2nd pair on the flop there to try and define kokken's hand. You called his pre-flop raise so if you lead out when the Ace hits he has to at least consider the possibility that you've got an Ace that you are going to go with, and I dont think he's likely to play back at you unless he also has a hand he's willing to go with. If he was trying to steal pre-flop he'll probably just throw his hand away, and if he calls you can pretty well put him on a draw or a weak Ace. If he plays back, well you have a decision to make and probably can safely fold.

That being said, your call on the flop and the turn become part of a very interesting (and I think good) play if you are intending to attempt to steal on a scare card, and read Kokken for the type of player who will fold an Ace to a scare card.

I dont think checkraising is as good of an option as betting out or folding.

[rachelwxm]

I think the PF call is OK unless you think CO is very tight player. The only thing I am concerned is what if toro think this is a steal and pushed? And bet on flop or check raise flop are both good plays imo. I would not flat call here, most people would auto bet after raise PF and you need to find out now where you stand. Any free card J-K on the turn would gets you into much tough decision here. I would happy to take the pot or give it up on flop here. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the PF call is OK unless you think CO is very tight player. The only thing I am concerned is what if toro think this is a steal and pushed? And bet on flop or check raise flop are both good plays imo. I would not flat call here, most people would auto bet after raise PF and you need to find out now where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fine with my preflop call. Right as I did it, I was pretty concerned Toro was going to push - it does look like an easy chance to pick up 600 chips, but if he did, I fold - not the end of the world. If I raised and got called, I'm looking at playing a pot that's already ~2K out of position with a mediocre hand. Not exactly the best situation in the world.

I like my river decision as well. I thought that was pretty straightforward. I did get a little lucky that the "prefect card" fell, but I probably would've made the same bet with anything other than a A, K, or Q - check-folding a K or Q and check-calling an A. Given the card that came, there's a very good chance that he's laying down a hand that I'm behind here too.

I actually liked the flop - I thought there was a good enough chance I was ahead. I do like leading out (or calling) both the flop and turn better than check-raising, as I did want this hand to get to showdown (until the river card at least), and I'd feel obligated to lead at the subsequent street if my check-raise was called, as he himself could've easily been on a draw.

Is any of this faulty reasoning?

[rachelwxm]

Not to criticize your play, but if I am CO, I would put you on exactly pair of T 8 7 or str4. So the river could not help you at all. I would call your river bet with straight, T or over pair and fold everything else. If that's the case, CO is actually making a correct fold here.

You flat call on flop give him free chance to chase over cards. And your river bet willl be called by a hand that beat you. What's good about that?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
And your river bet willl be called by a hand that beat you. What's good about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you call a big bet with A8 on a board of T987x, 3 clubs?

Edit: Hero could very well have JTs, a (made) flush draw or rivered 2 pair. I'm not sure I like check/calling at any point before that but I do like the river bet.

[rachelwxm]

ok, I did miss the 3 flush on the river. But seriously are you folding over pair here? /images/graemlins/smile.gif At least I will not for the price hero offered. Besides, I think the way CO bet the turn does not look like he has over pair. So I would guess CO made a right decision here unless he has a T. But I would call with T with heart beat. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
HU, I dont give my opponent too much credit. Maybe that's my leak.

[Irieguy]

Tactically, I don't think you played the hand badly because you did a good job representing a draw that hit. But it was definitely a negative EV approach, and a huge strategic mistake.

Strategically, the fact that the chip leader has been very aggressive has a number of very important implications relative to your healthy stack size:

1. Other players have noticed his play, too, and they are also sick of it. But they have fewer chips than you, and they are going to soon be ready to make their stand against him.

2. You have a nice implied value playing against him right now because he probably feels he can bully you pretty easily since you've been so tight. So if you get a monster, there's a good chance you can get him to move against you.

3. The middle stacks aren't going to want to defend their blinds aggressively against you because they think you're tight and they just want to double up against the chip leader's raise when they get an ace or pair.

These 3 factors are going to allow you to steal some blinds, wait for some people to bust, and potentially increase your stack very nicely if you get a monster against the chip leader. This is an ideal tournament situation to be in. The one thing you absolutely do not want to do under any circumstances is waste this strategic gem by dumping chips to the chip leader by getting too cute.

These, I think, are the considerations that should be going through your head at this stage of the tournament. I fold my SB against chip leader's raise with anything but a premium hand. Even if I know I'm ahead. Even If I think I can outplay him. You are golden if you're smart.

Clear and easy preflop fold.

Irieguy