Tourney situation

I discussed this hand for about a half hour with my friend last night and we never really determined the definitive answer. Thought I would throw it out for comments.


Situation - 40 player tourney. Top 9 paid. ~23 players left. ~60K in chips in play. Blinds are 100-200. Three players in the hand. UTG was new player to the table with ~5500 in chips and was big stack at the table. Button had ~4400. I was in SB with ~2000. The questions are about how my friend UTG played the hand.


The hand

Friend calls UTG with A-5 spades. Button also calls. I raise to T600 from the SB. BB folds and both call. First question. Should UTG have called the T400 raise with T1200 pot?


Both players called raise. Flop is Q-8-4 with two spades. SB (me) goes all-in for T1400. Second question. Should UTG call the T1400 raise with T3400 in pot?


UTG did call the T1400 and then Button re-raises all-in for another T2400. Final question. SHould UTG call the T2400 raise with nut flush draw with T8600 in pot?


Results to follow. Bonus brownie points for whoever succesfully puts SB and Button on their hand. /images/smile.gif

I'll preface this by disclosing I am a 7-stud player who is very new to hold 'em tournaments, but based on the action you described it seems logical to me that:


1. you (the SB) probably have AQ or QQ (both hands make sense given your actions before and after the flop);


2. The button has pocket 8's (with a big pair he would have raised before the flop; after the flop I think he needs a big hand to raise all-in after you went all-in and UTG called, so middle set makes sense).


It seems to me that UTG is getting the correct odds to call your all-in bet of 1,400, and is also getting correct odds to call the button's all-in raise.


As for the pre-flop action, I don't think he should have limped UTG with A-5... but as to whether he should have called your all-in bet, I will leave that to the experts on this forum (which I obviously am not... but hopefully this post makes sense).

I'm going to guess from the way you asked the question that a spade came on the turn or river and UTG won.


I also forgot to add that AA was a logical hand for the SB.


Can't wait to hear what happened.

Sounds like the pocket Queens would have beaten the 88 or 44 but lost to the nut flush when the board didn't pair. He probably shouldn't have called either of your bets but the last call was correct and his first call was not far off. At that point he was both pot committed and getting almost correct odds to call. He may have also seen that the button was going to call your flop bet and that makes it right for him to call but when the button raises it is too late to muck. The wheel redraw give a little extra value to the hand. Don't be too angry with your frien. He was not far off on any of his actions and he certainly shouldn't fold because of the friendship. Don't take it personal.

John

First comment, he shouldn't be calling as the first one in with any hand unless there has been a lot of this going on, and he knows he's likely to get a multiway pot with no raise behind him. If not, then he should be raising or folding.


Of course he should call your raise preflop, unless he figures there is a good chance the button will raise again. Your raise makes it 400 to win 1200 for him, plus it's really more likely 400 to win 1600 since the button figures to call also. He shouldn't be too happy about the situation, but he's potstuck for that amount.


Your raise should've been all-in. A pot-sized raise would've been 1000 total, and since that's half your stack, all-in is better. If you want action from exactly one player, then at least raise to 800 or 900, so at least one of them might figure to fold.


When you went all-in on the flop, your friend should not have called. He should've raised all-in himself. He can't figure to get an overcall from the button unless that's a good flop, in which case he might be paying more anyway. By raising he can maybe force the button to fold a hand like AK and give himself a couple of extra outs. For example, if you hold KK, then he can win with only a spade. But, if he gets the button to fold Ax where x is greater than 5, he picks up 2 more outs to win.


Plus, what if you're bluffing with AK or the like? Now he wins with a 5 plus any spade. And, is there any chance you've got a bluff hand like JT of spades? Now, he might vault himself from second place to the lead by pushing the other player out.


Of course he calls the last raise also. He's getting about 3.5:1 on that call, and he'll make the nut flush a lot more often than that. While it might sometime be no good because one of you also fills up, he can't give that too much weight under the circumstances.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

I guess me posting the hand drastically skewed what people expected the outcome to be. /images/smile.gif B-man you were close on the hands but you got it reversed.

I actually held 88 in the SB. The button held AQ. Very aggressive move for him, when he re-raised I was starting to worry about QQ except that I can't see how he would limp pre-flop with QQ. Turn was a blank and the river an ace so I tripled up, button won the side and UTG had about 1500 left.


Marcus

> Friend calls UTG with A-5 spades.


Unless he was pretty sure that it wouldn't get raised, I think he should have mucked. AXs loses much of it's appeal when played out of position, anyway.


> Should UTG have called the T400 raise with T1200 pot?


No. The money wasn't anywhere deep enough to lay him correct implied odds to play for a flush or wheel and his A5 has an excellent chance of being dominated.


After the flop, I think he played the hand well.


cu


Ignatius

Well I am the UTG player. Here are my thoughts.

After less than a lap at this table,being a transferred player with the big stack,

I was already involved in 3 hands. All three hands I raised the amount of the BB 160 to 320.

I won a very good size pot with trip 5. Won a bluff from good position and did lay down a KQ

suited as the other big stack came back at me with a 1000 raise. So I was definately throwing a

little variety into my betting. Yes I did only want to see the flop for the price of a BB.

When my good friend, and ride home, Pancho raised me 400

I made a big mistake in calling him. It was an imotional call. Looking back it was impossible

for Pancho to not have at least a pair or AK AQ.He would never come back at two players without

a strong hand in this situation.


Thanks everyone for the responses, the analysis was very helpful.


Pistol

well i know this wasnt the question, but he shouldnt have called preflop. UTG, he's asking for a heads up or 3 way pot, which makes A5s a weak hand, and being chip leader at the table you dont want to put yourself in a difficult call situation like a big bet to a nut flush draw.


But to answer your questions: No he shouldnt call the preflop raise, because that puts him in a tough call situation even if he gets the draw he's looking for.


Once he has the draw, no he shouldnt call the 1400 raise, his odds to hit the flush are worse than the return by far.


after the 2400 raise i think he can still fold, because he still has enough chips to do well in the tournament, so its not a too many chips committed situation.