Poker Article from UMN-TC [that irritates me]

[Schneids]

I'll leave it to you to figure out what part of the article irritates me.

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2004/12/15/11745
[ QUOTE ]
Some call it a sport; others call it a hobby or an addiction.
Finance sophomore Brandon Ressler calls it his job.

The North Dakota native said he spends 20 hours a week playing online poker. He said that he started in February after figuring he could beat the majority of online players he observed.

Since Ressler started playing, the 19-year-old said, he has made approximately $10,000 before taxes, money he diverts to his Roth IRA retirement account and uses for day-to-day expenses.

Eric Swanson
After less than 10 months of playing online poker games, finance sophomore Brandon Ressler said, he has accumulated approximately $10,000 from poker Web sites. Although Ressler rarely plays with real cards and chips, he said, he sometimes plays with his friends.




But Ressler said his sizeable winnings are no big deal.

“There aren’t any long-term benefits to having this sort of job,” he said.

After saving $100 he won in poker games on campus and around the Twin Cities, Ressler said, he opened a cash account with an online poker site, despite his friends’ efforts to discourage him.

“They all tried to talk me out of it … they thought I was going to lose everything,” Ressler said. He said he doubled his buy-in, or the amount of money a player starts a game with, on the first day.

Twelve days later, Ressler said, he had $1,000 in his account.

Poker as a part-time job

Ressler said he puts approximately 20 hours a week into gaming, earning approximately $300 per week. He said that figure is approximately double the hourly rate of what he made working at a grocery store, McDonald’s or the Bismarck, N.D., Parks and Recreation District.

Ressler said his success encouraged two of his friends to join within a month, but a third friend was skeptical.

“I figured that after a couple of big wins, the site would take all of your money, like the slots do,” said Casey Litchke, a University student and Ressler’s friend.

In response, Ressler offered to bankroll Litchke for $50. Litchke has won $2,300 since.

Ressler said he had to convince himself to play online. While he usually comes out ahead, there are times when he questions whether he should play at all.

“All the times I had bad beats, I would have quit. It’s so depressing, and you can’t shake off a $200 pot very quickly,” he said.

Ressler now charts his performance so he can see patterns and trends in his play, he said. It also helps take the sting out of bad luck because he can see how much he has won in the past week at any time, which often dwarfs the pot he could have lost, he said.

By doing this, Ressler has been able to distinguish between luck and skill.

“Short term, it’s gambling, because the outcome is uncertain. But over time, everybody gets the same hands, and the player that makes the least mistakes gets the money,” he said.

Illegal winnings

Online gambling is a criminal activity, said Jim Arlt, of the state Department of Public Safety’s Alcohol and Gambling Enforcement division.

Arlt said that because of the Federal Wire Act, anyone who gambles online is committing a state and federal crime, and any credit card company used to pay online gambling Web sites or Internet service providers used to access them might be guilty as accomplices to the crime.

Steve Johnson, deputy police chief for the University Police Department, said that because there aren’t many complaints filed, there is no reason to investigate gambling on campus.

However, he said he is concerned for students who gamble online.

“That person was gambling with more than his money,” Johnson said.

He said giving personal information to any Web site, including online casinos, could easily lead to a person being scammed or having his or her identity stolen.

Ressler said he is concerned about the legality of his winnings but does not plan on quitting.

“I know it’s illegal, but I pay taxes on what I win, and it’s a victimless crime,” he said. “Some people pay to be entertained, and some people do the entertaining.”

Ressler’s passion for poker goes beyond cards, and he said he is “very lucky” to get paid for doing what he loves.

His room is full of crates containing poker books, statistic sheets on the wall near his computer and a painting of two aces, the best starting hand. Ressler said he rarely watches television unless poker is on, and his favorite movies are about poker.

But he said playing cards isn’t always fun.

Ressler remembers a two-month dry spell in which he went without any significant earnings. He said even the best players go through rough times, such as Phil Hellmuth, 1989 World Series of Poker No Limit Hold’em champion, who dropped out of the University of Wisconsin to play poker professionally, saved $100,000 and went to Las Vegas, where he lost it all — twice.

Ressler said he does not respect professional poker players.

“What do you talk about with someone that plays poker for a living? I don’t know what service they provide for society,” he said.

“I’ll work a 9-to-5 job, even if it means having to put up with the boss every day. At least I’ll be doing something.”

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm debating whether writing in a letter to the editor would be worth my time or not. Gonores thinks definitely; I_am_B says there are plenty of retorts we could concoct, but why? who needs to know about it? I see both their views.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll leave it to you to figure out what part of the article irritates me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Was it this part?

[ QUOTE ]
He said that figure is approximately double the hourly rate of what he made working at ... the Bismarck, N.D., Parks and Recreation District.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah - I hate those NoDak twats too.

[gonores]

[ QUOTE ]
Ressler said he does not respect professional poker players.

“What do you talk about with someone that plays poker for a living? I don’t know what service they provide for society,” he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the part that seriously irks me. I'd like to send this tool my hours log from big brothers/big sisters and the charitable deductions section of my 1040. Not to beat my own drum too much, but I can't think of many 23 year-olds who are in the position I'm in, in terms of being able to help out the community.

We have to endure plenty of bad press from outsiders...we don't need insiders giving professional players a bad name as well.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ressler said he does not respect professional poker players.

“What do you talk about with someone that plays poker for a living? I don’t know what service they provide for society,” he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the part that seriously irks me. I'd like to send this tool my hours log from big brothers/big sisters and the charitable deductions section of my 1040. Not to beat my own drum too much, but I can't think of many 23 year-olds who are in the position I'm in, in terms of being able to help out the community.

We have to endure plenty of bad press from outsiders...we don't need insiders giving professional players a bad name as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding ding we have a winner.

[dogmeat]

Come on, you mean that working at McDonalds and serving the general public a diet of sugar water, carbo's and deep fried foods along with the fat found in a Big Mac is not the best way to spend your life? GMAFB

Maybe this guys thinks his finance major is going to provide something great for mankind!

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ressler said he does not respect professional poker players.

“What do you talk about with someone that plays poker for a living? I don’t know what service they provide for society,” he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the part that seriously irks me. I'd like to send this tool my hours log from big brothers/big sisters and the charitable deductions section of my 1040. Not to beat my own drum too much, but I can't think of many 23 year-olds who are in the position I'm in, in terms of being able to help out the community.

We have to endure plenty of bad press from outsiders...we don't need insiders giving professional players a bad name as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding ding we have a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, though, he does have some semblance of a point, however miniscule it is. That you do wonderful things outside of your work has no bearing on the fact that what you do for a job doesn't contribute to society. Perhaps you could say that poker for a living gives you the spare time or the flexible schedule needed to do some of these things. The poker in itself does absolutely nothing for society except drain the wallets of a large number of people.

Do I hate how poker's portrayed in this article? Yes. I'm certainly not anti-poker and I have nothing against pro players - I'd like to be one myself. I can also understand why you're upset, but you're kidding yourself if you think that your poker career is beneficial to society, given the caveat mentioned above. Now, who decides what is 'good' for society can be debated elsewhere, but I think I'm in the clear on this one.

You don't have to explain yourself (or your profession) to me or anyone else, but you also shouldn't pretend it's something it's not. Just go along doing what you do and live your life.

[J.R.]

I think the big problem is the assumption that most jobs provide some meaningful service to society, and those alleged contributions greatly exceed the entertainment value provided by a pro keeping poker games going. I think most jobs' "societal contibutions" are greatly overstated.


In addition this:

[ QUOTE ]
Online gambling is a criminal activity, said Jim Arlt, of the state Department of Public Safety’s Alcohol and Gambling Enforcement division.

Arlt said that because of the Federal Wire Act, anyone who gambles online is committing a state and federal crime

[/ QUOTE ]

is not fact, its just an argument concerning how the Wire Act should be interpreted in his opinion. Such an arguument, while not asserted by the federal government in support of a criminal charge, has been rejected by the 5th circuit in a civil case. And while I don't know about the specficis of state law, I do know that MN state crimes don't flow from federal statutes .

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the big problem is the assumption that most jobs provide some meaningful service to society, and those alleged contributions greatly exceed the entertainment value provided by a pro keeping poker games going. I think most jobs' "societal contibutions" are greatly overstated.


In addition this:

[ QUOTE ]
Online gambling is a criminal activity, said Jim Arlt, of the state Department of Public Safety’s Alcohol and Gambling Enforcement division.

Arlt said that because of the Federal Wire Act, anyone who gambles online is committing a state and federal crime

[/ QUOTE ]

is not fact, its just an argument concerning how the Wire Act should be interpreted in his opinion. Such an arguument, while not asserted by the federal government in support of a criminal charge, has been rejected by the 5th circuit in a civil case. And while I don't know about the specficis of state law, I do know that MN state crimes don't flow from federal statutes .

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree completely and the part you mentioned in the last part of your post is actually the part that got me the most upset. As for other jobs not providing benefits to society, that's certainly true, but these aren't the jobs we're talking about - we're talking about poker and whether or not it provides a benefit to society. My point is that it actually does provide very little benefit and that the kid in the article thus isn't far off in this aspect. The legality issues brought up are what I have a problem with how they were presented.

In the end, this article certainly is a terrible piece of crap and there are plenty of bad parts to go around.

[Mens Rea]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the big problem is the assumption that most jobs provide some meaningful service to society, and those alleged contributions greatly exceed the entertainment value provided by a pro keeping poker games going. I think most jobs' "societal contibutions" are greatly overstated.

In addition this:

[ QUOTE ]
Online gambling is a criminal activity, said Jim Arlt, of the state Department of Public Safety’s Alcohol and Gambling Enforcement division.

Arlt said that because of the Federal Wire Act, anyone who gambles online is committing a state and federal crime

[/ QUOTE ]

is not fact, its just an argument concerning how the Wire Act should be interpreted in his opinion. Such an arguument, while not asserted by the federal government in support of a criminal charge, has been rejected by the 5th circuit in a civil case. And while I don't know about the specficis of state law, I do know that MN state crimes don't flow from federal statutes .

[/ QUOTE ]


JR - Do you have the 5th Circuit case name - I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks.

[J.R.]

Fifth Circuit Opinion In Re: Mastercard International Inc. Internet Gambling Litigation (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/5th/0130389p.pdf#search='mastercard%205th%20circuit')

The Fifth Circuit's opinion does not really get into the nitty gritty but more agrees with the district courts analysis that the Wire Act only applies to wagers on a sporting event or contest. Here is the District Court's Order of Dimissal (http://pub.bna.com/eclr/1321a.htm).

[whiskeytown]

the newspaper is a terrible piece of crap too...

I was waiting for the spin where they say poker/gambling unfairly targets minorities and the poor -

I'm a progressive person, but the UMN-TC is simply liberal in the most ignorant ways...not to mention the staff has a habit of hanging around for months after they graduate cause they couldn't find jobs and the U of M let's them sorta pad the resume a bit more.

RB

[tek]

[ QUOTE ]
...we're talking about poker and whether or not it provides a benefit to society. My point is that it actually does provide very little benefit and that the kid in the article thus isn't far off in this aspect.

[/ QUOTE ]

So all the dealers, cocktail waitresses, floorpeople, people who vaccuum, cooks, etc at all the cardrooms work for free? We provide jobs because of poker playing. I guess the snot-nosed brats at the college papers don't understand the value of that. Maybe they should take some econ and finance classes inbetween their Marxist Studies classes...

/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Cat]

Just read this and wow it makes me mad, I could barely choose the part that irritated you as there is so much crap in there. 'There are no long-term benefits to this kind of job'? Okay, you dont get a pension or medical plan. But working your own hours, not having to commute if you play online, not having a boss, choosing when to take holidays, doing a job you actually enjoy - I'd say these contribute significantly to my general happiness, which I consider the most important 'long-term benefit' of any job.

As for the 'contributing nothing to society' rubbish - a large percentage of jobs don't do anything of the sort either. I used to work as a travel writer on a magazine, something my family considered a 'real' job. Gee, I'd hate to think how society would fall apart if those poor people on the plane hadn't had anything to read...

I just hope he ends up being Annie Duke's accountant /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[HUSKER'66]

[ QUOTE ]
Fifth Circuit Opinion In Re: Mastercard International Inc. Internet Gambling Litigation (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/5th/0130389p.pdf#search='mastercard%205th%20circuit')

The Fifth Circuit's opinion does not really get into the nitty gritty but more agrees with the district courts analysis that the Wire Act only applies to wagers on a sporting event or contest. Here is the District Court's Order of Dimissal (http://pub.bna.com/eclr/1321a.htm).

[/ QUOTE ]

Everytime I read about this case my blood boils. /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Thompson and Bradley the "plantiffs" in this case used their credit cards to place wagers online because it made their wagers readily available....they claim they would not have bet at all if it wasn't so easy and it's the CC companies and internet sites fault.

Give me a fluking break.

Because of the power and enticement from this "evil empire" Bradley saw fit to place wagers on 19 different days on seven seperate sites.

Thompson only placed wagers on two sites over thirteen different days.

Anyone other than me think that these two "plantiffs" would have never come forward if they had won?

Two losers whose lack of self control and ineptness try and blame it on someone else....what else is new?

Reminds me of the burgler or car thief who while in the act injure themselves and then try and sue the owner.


Husker

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Online gambling is a criminal activity, said Jim Arlt, of the state Department of Public Safety’s Alcohol and Gambling Enforcement division. Arlt said that because of the Federal Wire Act, anyone who gambles online is committing a state and federal crime, and any credit card company used to pay online gambling Web sites or Internet service providers used to access them might be guilty as accomplices to the crime.

This part irritates me for the simple reason that its flat-out wrong. This issue has already been litigated. Long ago, online gaming was deemed as not in violation of the Wire Act.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Ressler said he does not respect professional poker players.

“What do you talk about with someone that plays poker for a living? I don’t know what service they provide for society,” he said.

[/ QUOTE ]


i have no problem with this quote whatsoever.
The kid sounds reasonably balanced to me. If he wants an occupation where he feels he is contributing to the public good then more power to him.


[ QUOTE ]
I think the big problem is the assumption that most jobs provide some meaningful service to society

[/ QUOTE ]


I completely agree with this.
I have NEVER had a job where I was contributing THAT much to the public good. I have had a couple where I felt I contributed a BIT....but certainly not that much....and certainly not to the extent that I dramatically made any kind of a difference.
My GF is a nurse at a hospital and it could be argued that she makes a more significant difference in a single day then I have in several years.
Just my perspective....don't get too upset about it.


[ QUOTE ]
So all the dealers, cocktail waitresses, floorpeople, people who vaccuum, cooks, etc at all the cardrooms work for free? We provide jobs because of poker playing.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes...I guess this is true to a certain extent.
I was a BJ dealer for 8 months last year...and I certainly didn't feel I was 'providing a valuable contribution to society.' I felt more like I was a little corporate pawn who's job it was to sit and take everyone's money and feed their addiction.
Since I have such a magnetic personality I guess I did a bit more than other dealers since I would joke with the players and make them smile, etc etc. So I guess in the form of "entertainment" I actually was doing something.
But, in reality, my job was to deal cards to mathematically challenged individuals and take their money.


I don't think it's correct to look at your poker-playing as an activity that 'provides jobs to some people.'
A pimp or a drug-lord provides people with jobs but that doesn't make it terribly righteous.


Now....if the kid just thinks that ANY job will be more valuable to society than playing poker he is certainly mistaken.
I suggest that many jobs are only marginally better than playing poker in this respect.


I don't kid myself about my poker-playing....i KNOW that I'm not necessarily accomplishing anything with it.
I enjoy it and it's profitable and that's why I do it.
When it becomes even more profitable I have every intention of contributing more to society with my additional free-time.

I have other activities that I enjoy that contribute nothing to society either. I play piano for example....but since I don't play in public or anything like that it doesn't even qualify as entertaining others.
I guess it's overdue for a tuning so I will actually be helping out some piano-tuner make some money in the near future.
Still, that's not the point.
I play piano because I enjoy it (even though I kind of suck) and it provides some sort of fulfillment for me (and me alone).


In the end, my priority has to be myself.
I want to travel to Europe. I want to have more spare-time to read. I want to have enough money to have a family and put a kid through college.

I currently set my own hours and have a "job" that I enjoy.
I have no complaints.
But I certainly am not contributing anything meaningful to society. I'm just not that sure that a lot of people in other occupations really are either.

If you like playing poker....then play poker....and there's no need to feel guilty about it.
But don't delude yourself into thinking that what you are doing is somehow significant or important.

We play a game and enjoy it and make money doing it. That's about all it is really.


The debate continues. carry on.

[Sponger15SB]

I just think it sucks that making $300 a week in North Dakota makes him like the richest person there.

Houses cost like $80,000! Bastards.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Online gambling is a criminal activity, said Jim Arlt, of the state Department of Public Safety’s Alcohol and Gambling Enforcement division. Arlt said that because of the Federal Wire Act, anyone who gambles online is committing a state and federal crime, and any credit card company used to pay online gambling Web sites or Internet service providers used to access them might be guilty as accomplices to the crime.

This part irritates me for the simple reason that its flat-out wrong. This issue has already been litigated. Long ago, online gaming was deemed as not in violation of the Wire Act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you reference the case?

eastbay

[Paul2432]

Am I the only one that likes this article? Sure there's some negative spin, but the predominant message is that on-line poker is easy money. Someone reading this with a casual interest in poker isn't going to care about the legalities or benefitting society. They see some dopey college kids turned $100 into $10,000 and $50 into $2300.

The best part of the article was the line about skill vs. luck. This gives anyone that plays a built in excuse for losing quite a bit before they figure out they can't beat the game.

Any article that talks about winning money on-line is a good article IMO. Would you prefer an article about 2+2 posters and how they study the game constantly and that a casual player really stands no chance?

Paul

[DangerGoodson]

I think schneids is just upset they didn't feature him in the article.
Maybe you should send them a screen shot of your poker tracker.
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I think schneids is just upset they didn't feature him in the article.
Maybe you should send them a screen shot of your poker tracker.
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're confusing me with Bicyclekick. That'd be right up his alley. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif