Internet Series of Poker [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

jek187

12-15-2004, 08:43 PM

A few details on this:
This is a project founded and developed by Granny and myself. Once we had the concept, we approached the powers here at 2+2 in hopes of developing this event with 2+2 as the headquarters. Next thing I knew, Granny was having a private meeting with Mason. After a minute and a half, she walked out of the conference room, spit something in an ashtray, hitched up her nightgown straps and gave me a big thumbs-up. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Our goal was to create an Internet version of the WPT. We are in the final stages of development, and are happy to report that while there still are finishing touches to be applied, and contracts to be signed, we have gathered enough sites together and are shooting for a January launch for the inaugural season. The season will last 1 year, and will feature 11 different sites hosting a total of 12 events. One site will do double duty, and besides hosting a normal ISOP event, will also host the final.

The 11 regular events will have a $1,000+X buy-in (I'm assuming X = $50, but this could change) and should have some $1million+ prize pools. The final will have a $5,000+X buy-in (X = $250?) and, in terms of prize money, should blow the doors off anything the Internet has ever seen.

We've designed a couple satellite programs that should allow people of all bankroll levels to compete in this. What this means, is that players who win their way in for $5, $10, or $20, will not be facing a lineup typical to a large buy-in tournament. True, there will be some big name direct buy-ins, but there will also be a ton of other people from your stake level (and remember, this includes numerous fish from the site itself, this is not a 2+2 exclusive event.)

It is our hope that everyone will win in this. The sites get some great exposure, the fish across the net get to play in a really exciting event (keeping them coming back for more), the grinders here at 2+2 get to play in a big, +EV, tournament for a minimal outlay (i.e. whatever buy-in tournament they're normally used to playing), and the "Names" of poker get another big buy-in event to play in.

Other variables such as which sites will be involved, specific dates etc will be released just as soon as all the issues have been finalized. We are happy to answer any general questions and would love to hear any and all feedback, but we won't be able to provide too much by way of specifics until all the parties are on the dotted line.

Questions should be directed to Granny or myself. David, Mason, Ray and Mat will be supporting us through discussion in the forum and participation in events where schedules allow. Chuck has been an amazing help to us in developing the concept and will continue to aid us in the technical magic needed to pull this off.

However, they won't be tending to operational details so try not to bug them on ISOP issues. When the forum is operational and the series has launched, there will be a distinct chain of contact available for anyone with questions or problems. In the meantime, please direct flames and sexual requests towards Granny and positive reinforcement toward myself.

Let’s see if we can make some millionaires out of 2+2ers.

Pokermonger

12-15-2004, 08:55 PM

A truly wonderful idea. I look forward to the upcoming information.

n1stunnor

12-15-2004, 08:59 PM

Great work Jek,and Granny,and all others involved.

GrannyMae

12-15-2004, 09:07 PM

spit something in an ashtray

chewing gum, i swear.

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/x/bubble.gif

Yobz

12-15-2004, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let’s see if we can make some millionaires out of 2+2ers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm up for that, even if my name is only on the "made 100,000" list /images/graemlins/smile.gif

sublime

12-15-2004, 09:17 PM

doesnt stars already do this to some extent?

Momo

12-15-2004, 09:31 PM

Could you please give a little info on which sites your going to be doing this with? The thing off the top of my head that kind of throws me off is, what are people supposed to do about party skins? If your going with more then one party site, then your techniclly only supposed to have an account at one of these not all of them. Is there something you have worked out to make this possible.(BTW I know most people all ready have accounts on both sites, but some people don't).

jek187

12-15-2004, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Could you please give a little info on which sites your going to be doing this with? The thing off the top of my head that kind of throws me off is, what are people supposed to do about party skins? If your going with more then one party site, then your techniclly only supposed to have an account at one of these not all of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Until we get everyone signing on the dotted line, we won't be able to release the site's names. However, do note that since we're only travelling to 11 sites, that we can easily fill our roster w/out including multiple sites from Party & Friends. No matter what though, we'll certainly have the way paved so you can sign-up w/out any hitches at the sites.

ArchAngel71857

12-15-2004, 11:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
spit something in an ashtray

chewing gum, i swear.

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/x/bubble.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you. I have it on expert authority that you swallow.
<font color="white"> Ohhhhhhh, COME on. boo yay there was another one. but seriously, you left yourself WIDE OPEN for that one. Damn, I'm good.
</font>
-AA

CCass

12-15-2004, 11:53 PM

Is there any doubt that the best "internet gambling" minds reside in the Zoo?

Matt24

12-16-2004, 01:19 AM

will this be sponsered by two plus two? That doesnt sound like a great idea. I mean it does for two plus two I guess, but not for the regulars.

Jurollo

12-16-2004, 01:25 AM

Had this idea about 6 months ago and emailed a business plan to the big 5, got personally shot down by 4 of them, never heard from 2. Guess I should have inquired about getting a big backer like 2+2.
Forever wondering what could have been,
~Justin

sublime

12-16-2004, 01:33 AM

will this be sponsered by two plus two? That doesnt sound like a great idea. I mean it does for two plus two I guess, but not for the regulars.

great point. probably will have twoplustwo plastered everywhere. cant wait /images/graemlins/frown.gif

MicroBob

12-16-2004, 05:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
emailed a business plan to the big 5, got personally shot down by 4 of them, never heard from 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does.......not......compute

Me.........very.........confused

Jurollo

12-16-2004, 09:49 AM

hahaha, was supposed to be 4 and 1. Maybe that is why I got shot down. On a side note I would be careful with the "Internet Series of Poker" because if it became real popular it could infringe on the WSOP's trademark and intellectual property. Any thought on this?
~Justin

pc in NM

12-16-2004, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
spit something in an ashtray

chewing gum, i swear.

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/x/bubble.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's chewing gum??? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Big TR

12-16-2004, 01:25 PM

Thread Hijack alert: Jek, was the ending of Dark Tower VII the worst possible ending to the story? Or was it the best? I lean toward the former.

GrannyMae

12-16-2004, 02:06 PM

will this be sponsered by two plus two? That doesnt sound like a great idea. I mean it does for two plus two I guess, but not for the regulars.

hi folks,

this will not in any way be sponsored by 2+2. it is sponsored by the sponsoring sites (if that makes sense).

2+2 is simply the place that the series will be headquartered. the sponsoring sites will be paying a fee to participate in the series, and in return for that they will be getting their own section in the the newly developed forum.

i'm not sure why anyone would think this is not a great idea. all this is is TOEJAM on steroids. it is a tourney series that should be a lot of fun and create community competition to go along with all this discussion.

think of it as a bowling league at Mason's house.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/ups/kamikaze/smilie_home.gif

GrannyMae

12-16-2004, 02:32 PM

great point. probably will have twoplustwo plastered everywhere. cant wait

hi sublime,

i ask is that you guys take a look at what this is about before you rush to judgement about anything. ISOP is not going to have a commercial on monday night football that drives people to 2+2 (although i am sure that the owners of 2+2 would like that)

wait until the forum goes live so everybody can then make a judgement about whether they feel this is a good thing or bad thing. then, as always, we will discuss it. i don't know how anyone can judge this to be bad when no details have been released.

we will be finalizing the site roster and schedule in the next couple of weeks, and we are certain that most members will be very excited with the final product.

for those of you that are familiar with the owners and management here, you already know that the 2+2 founders would not have signed off on anything that would harm this place. this is an enhancement. there will be POY type rankings, celebrities playing in the events, internet radio coverage of final tables etc. we don't plan to do anything but make players who eneter the event stars (and rich).

we have a member base of 20,000 poker players, and an equal number of readers who have never registered. i guess i am saying that the "secret is out".

4 years ago when we had only 200 posters, this place was indeed a haven of secrecy. not any more. now we boast a member list that includes world champs and the brightest minds in poker. we have them young, we have them old. we have pros and amateurs. we have, quite simply, the only poker community on the internet of its kind. adding a competitive aspect to the community seems like a natural progression.

i had mentioned in a post the other day that 2+2 is the 9,700th busiest website on the internet. while i am not poking fun at anyone, in comparison, UPF ranks 197,000 in traffic.

the cat's out of the bag on the existence of 2+2, and ISOP will only help in keeping 2+2 at the very top.

i'm looking forward to the discussions once everyone sees the final product. IMO, someone would be hard pressed to argue how ISOP will hurt this community in any way. this will become perfectly clear when ISOP officially launches.

finally, a couple of comments have been made that:
1. isn't this what stars already does?
2. isn't this a ripoff of the wsop or wpt?

the answers are no.

this is nothing like the WCOOP because it is a 12 month, travelling tour. it is not a ripoff of any land based tournaments, as we share only one thing in common with these other events. the commonality is that they are all poker. the similarity ends there.
(as will be evident with the ISOP launch)

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/edoom/Lurking.gif

GrannyMae

12-16-2004, 02:37 PM

Any thought on this?

yes, they better be careful infringing on granny!! i'll sue them bastards to hell and back!

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/u/sheilaico.gif

(serious answer, there are no infringement issues, but thanks for bringing it up so i could answer that concern)

Rudbaeck

12-16-2004, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
will this be sponsered by two plus two? That doesnt sound like a great idea. I mean it does for two plus two I guess, but not for the regulars.

great point. probably will have twoplustwo plastered everywhere. cant wait /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish who actually want to learn are going to learn. Information doesn't have a big impact on the fish pond. Most calling stations know they are bleeding money, they just don't care. The Psychology of Poker has some great explanations for this.

morgant

12-16-2004, 02:43 PM

agreed, the info. is out there for anyone willing to find and apply it. all this ISOP will do if anything, is add more legitimacy to internet poker and 2+2 which we all have known about for a while now. not to mention a seemingly fun series of hyped up events!!

morgan180

12-16-2004, 03:05 PM

I can't wait - this sounds very cool. I am a satellite junky and love tournaments. Very cool and the best part is - IT GREW FROM THE PEOPLE OF 2+2! It's not some corporate thing, its organic, and built out of this community, you really can't ask for anything better.

Morgan

>>>>>>I mean, 2+2 is choosing user book covers for HOHE and helping users put together this, this truly is a unique place.

alittle

12-16-2004, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
great point. probably will have twoplustwo plastered everywhere. cant wait

i ask is that you guys take a look at what this is about before you rush to judgement about anything. ISOP is not going to have a commercial on monday night football that drives people to 2+2 (although i am sure that the owners of 2+2 would like that)

...

i guess i am saying that the "secret is out".

...

[/ QUOTE ]

If any fish ask about ISOP and 2+2, everyone is instructed to say that "ISOP is the International Store Of Pancakes" and "2+2 is a short stack with two sausage patties".

Also, they have a great brown trout special on Fridays.

TruePoker CEO

12-16-2004, 06:42 PM

"After a minute and a half, she walked out of the conference room ..."

A minute and a half ????

steamboatin

12-16-2004, 07:04 PM

I think they are worried that people will find this site and the games will get tougher. Not that the ISOP is in anyway a bad idea.

GrannyMae

12-16-2004, 10:57 PM

I think they are worried that people will find this site and the games will get tougher

i knew this. i have caught major shiit from posters here for years whenever i did anything that promoted 2+2. i understand the thinking, but don't agree.

the notion that people would come here to learn and therefore no longer be fish is one that i would argue because as someone pointed out in this thread, players that have the propensity and desire to improve their game have already found this place on their own. also, many that find this place will not become better players just by reading (also mentioned in this thread). they have to apply themselves, read books and have a true desire to become a student before they are a threat to anyones bankroll. that makes this circular, because anyone willing to take all of these steps found this place on their own before ISOP will show them where we are.

there will be newbies that find this place because of the ISOP, but if they are not the type that are hungry for knowledge, they will be no threat. as a matter of fact, many will give MORE back becuase they will feel a sense of community and therefore participate in all of the events to play with their new friends.

soooo, everone please be nice to the new ISOP traffic
(at least until the season is over)

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a0/dckix.gif

GrannyMae

12-16-2004, 11:00 PM

A minute and a half ????

actually, it was more like a minute.

i'm a pro.
last 30 seconds was small talk and a smoke

http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/smoking/rauch02.gif

rusty JEDI

12-17-2004, 05:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
will this be sponsered by two plus two? That doesnt sound like a great idea. I mean it does for two plus two I guess, but not for the regulars.

hi folks,

this will not in any way be sponsored by 2+2. it is sponsored by the sponsoring sites (if that makes sense).

2+2 is simply the place that the series will be headquartered. the sponsoring sites will be paying a fee to participate in the series, and in return for that they will be getting their own section in the the newly developed forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the sites are paying a fee to participate in the series i assume this is coming out of their +50 fee portion of the tournament.

My question is if the sitets are paying a fee. Who are they paying it to and what for?

rJ

Rudbaeck

12-17-2004, 05:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If the sites are paying a fee to participate in the series i assume this is coming out of their +50 fee portion of the tournament.

My question is if the sitets are paying a fee. Who are they paying it to and what for?

[/ QUOTE ]

For marketing I presume, and to pay those who will work on the project.

I'd hardly begrudge Granny a share of it, considering that Party already has a $500 million yearly profit.

rusty JEDI

12-17-2004, 05:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
considering that Party already has a $500 million yearly profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you get this number?

rJ

steamboatin

12-17-2004, 08:23 AM

I found on the cover of a poker book. HPFAP or TOP don't remember which.

Myrtle

12-17-2004, 08:36 AM

.....sounds to me as if this speaks to two issues.........

one persons' skill.....or....

....anothers' endurance.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Rudbaeck

12-17-2004, 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
considering that Party already has a $500 million yearly profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you get this number?

[/ QUOTE ]

eGaming Review (http://www.egrmagazine.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?action=display&id=510&section=3&keywor d=) - you have to sign up to read news, but if you want to keep up with what's happening behind the scenes it's the source of information.

Not so surprising, the only real cost Party has is advertising. Advertising on TV is expensive, the rest is all dirt cheap.

GrannyMae

12-17-2004, 01:29 PM

My question is if the sitets are paying a fee. Who are they paying it to and what for?

hiya rJ. how ya been?

ok, as i said, the details will be coming soon. however, i'll make an exception for my canadian buddy and answer this one.

the fee that the sites pay to 2+2 are basically advertising fees. it has nothing whatever to do with the tourney entry or tourney fee. the fee collected for the tourney entry is simply normal juice that is used to cover their own expenses.

the (very small) fee being paid to 2+2 gets them their own section in the new forum and helps pay their share to administrate the ISOP. placing that forum there, maintaining the forum, and paying the ISOP staff is what that fee will be used for.

again, we ask for you guys to wait for the details, but the sites will also be adding $5,000 to each event to cover the winner's entry in the final. for instance, if 500 people play in the site's peliminary event, the entire $500,000 will be returned to the players via the prize pool for that event.

the winner gets a $5,000 seat to the finals that will NOT be coming out of the prize pool. this $5,000 will be added by the site to pay the entry for their winner in the final.

hopefully some sites will add even more to the prize pools, but for sure they are adding $5,000 to each event. this will become crystal clear when we launch the details, but the fee being paid to 2+2 won't be coming from the players or player equity. that should be all that matters, and i assume that is why you were asking.

is it cold up there?

rusty JEDI

12-17-2004, 02:26 PM

Going OT, but only to answer the granny.

It is very cold up here. I am home for Christmas, and it is much colder than Vancouver.

Sounds like a good thing you guys have started here. Hopefully i will get in through a satelite. $9700 in tuition makes it a little tough to throw down on a large tournament. And now $9700 Canadian is not as little as it used to be. Could you ask George to strengthen his dollar back up some. Ask him also to give back our expos if he's not going to do it right... come home expos (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041216/ts_afp/baseballusawashington_041216175931)

Sorry for asking questions instead of waiting for details.

rJ

GrannyMae

12-17-2004, 03:36 PM

the US capital's turn as a baseball town may be temporary after all

you can keep them. when they have a real team, we will steal them at that time.

Sorry for asking questions instead of waiting for details.

don't be, that was a good one. questions from you are always issues that go to the core of concerns of our target market, so keep them coming.

btw, there is nothing that would make us happier than for all of the entrants to come from cheapo satellites. that's the power of ISOP. it is a satellite based event. if i had to compare it to anything, it would be the PPM events that have very few direct buy-ins, and those that are direct buy-ins are the named pros that will really make this fun.

should this not have been green??

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="green">
It is very cold up here. I am home for Christmas, and it is much colder than Vancouver.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

please stick to decorum

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sm/zap.gif

GrannyMae

12-17-2004, 03:38 PM

"ISOP is the International Store Of Pancakes"

nh

http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/crazy/1076.gif

Mason Malmuth

12-19-2004, 06:15 AM

Hi Everyone:

Since there's a lot of interest as to what exactly this is, we're going to let this thread stick on top for a few days.

Best wishes,
Mason

WSOPWinner2005

12-19-2004, 06:27 AM

There is a "bit" of irony here - not saying it isn't a good idea... Just saying... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

razor

12-19-2004, 10:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
when they have a real team, we will steal them at that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

or cancel the world series on us... /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif

_2000Flushes

12-19-2004, 10:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is a "bit" of irony here - not saying it isn't a good idea... Just saying...

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I think it's hot.

Nice stick, Mason.

-2kF

GrannyMae

12-19-2004, 02:50 PM

Just saying...

just saying..... what?
complete your sentence.

i would be very interested in hearing your thoughts. seriously.

tyfromm

12-19-2004, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Everyone:

Since there's a lot of interest as to what exactly this is, we're going to let this thread stick on top for a few days.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of interest? You sticky this thread after a day and a half of No Replies. It's been 2 days since anything On-Topic has been posted in this thread.

That sure shows a lot of interest to me. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

GrannyMae

12-19-2004, 03:18 PM

It's been 2 days since anything On-Topic has been posted in this thread.

first of all, i did not know he was making this sticky, so my response here is not defending that aspect. second, it is hard for people to ask for more info when jek and myself have basically shut off answering anything further for now.

third, welcome back to tyfromm the troll!

i'm going to trust that your personal attacks against myself and jek in the past will be taken into consideration by others reading your reply.

no need to attack ISOP tyfromm because of your personal issues with us. be a man and make your attacks in the relevant threads at the relevant time.

tyfromm

12-19-2004, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'm going to trust that your personal attacks against myself and jek in the past will be taken into consideration by others reading your reply.

no need to attack ISOP tyfromm because of your personal issues with us. be a man and make your attacks in the relevant threads at the relevant time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you must be in another nasty mood today. Can't take a joke, eh?

As you have in the past, you misunderstand my humor as an attack. I needled jek in one thread because he swooped down after being absent for months and told us all how we must run our forum. As I have mentioned before, I am a fan of his site and browse it often.

I can't remember directing anything but jokes at you.

Well, you people didn't understand my Steven Punk persona, and you don't understand poor tyfromm. <sigh>

Well, time to head on down to the ISOP.
http://concordumc.org/pancakes.gif

GrannyMae

12-19-2004, 04:13 PM

As you have in the past, you misunderstand my humor as an attack

i will admit to being suprised by your seeming change back to someone that is 'not so fun'. i'm happy to hear it was humor. the funny thing is that jek and i have actually spent some time talking about how much you have morphed into someone that is a blast to have a round.

here is the bottom line on my reply. i hope it helps explain my defensiveness.

as you guys can imagine, getting the "boys" who own this place to agree to anything like this was not easy as you can probably imagine. in other words, the ISOP had to be sold to 2+2, THEN sold again to the sites. selling it to 2+2 was 3 months of work, then developing the concept to the point where we have 11 sites just about ready to sign has also taken a tremendous amount of time and effort.

there is not much visible yet that would support what i am saying regarding the amount of time and energy it has taken to get it to this point. all of this will become clearer when we launch the program. however, the effort and time we have spent on this has indeed made me a bit sensitive to a comment like you had posted. this is a project that has consumed a lot of people and a lot of energy and i just wanted to make sure that all of the other people involved were not going to "pay" for any former feuds that jek or myself had gotten ourselves into.

you know me tyfromm, i love to battle and have fun. but, i guess i was hoping for the best of both worlds. meaning, i want ISOP to be given the chance to succeed without it falling under any scrutiny that is based on people's perception of me as a poster. i know that i have been the raunchy huckster here for years, and i want to continue that. but, ISOP is a very serious business venture to many of us that have all this effort invested.

glad you clarified that it was all in fun. i was only trying to make sure that all you guys can differentiate between Granny the poster and the individual i am behind this persona. most importantly to me at this point is the success of the ISOP and if ISOP were to be flamed because of the behaivor that "GrannyMae" has shown in the past, then i would keep "Granny" out of ISOP so that all the other people involved did not have to pay the price for my boorish behaivor over the years. there are *many* people involved in this, and a substantial amount of money has already been spent and it has not even launched.

THAT is what i am trying to protect and defend, not my personal feelings. sorry if i came across as overly defensive and i hope this explanation cleared up my reaction.

i think you are a riot tyfromm, i just feared you had turned nasty again. your contributions in the last 2 months have been among my favorite posts to read.

http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/rant.gif

tyfromm

12-19-2004, 04:47 PM

The funniest thing about this exchange was that you felt the need to defend Mason over (Horrors!!) the stickying of a 2 day old thread.

Maybe Mason has a really thin skin, and if anyone would know that - it would be you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

sthief09

12-19-2004, 06:14 PM

this is really going to open the floodgates for the trolls and morons into this site

Freudian

12-19-2004, 10:55 PM

Good luck.

I do suspect the size of the poker room will have a massive influence on the size of the tournament though. Since the buy-in is what it is, I suspect many will focus on satellites. But if you are making good money 4-tabling on Party, you probably don't want to spend all that much time at Absolut playing satellites.

Furthermore, I think marketing might be a nightmare. I can't really see Party making a big deal about the other qualifiers (providing Party is one of the sites) simply because they have no incentive to send players to their competitiors.

Anyway, it is early still. I am sure you guys are working hard to figure it all out.

GrannyMae

12-19-2004, 11:55 PM

simply because they have no incentive to send players to their competitiors.

that is certainly what a site like party would think about this on first glance. however, upon further analysis, it becomes clear that the point of participation for party would be to show support to this community. this community pours a crap load of dollars into the party poker holes every day, so it would probably be EV- for them to snub the tourney.

we certainly are hoping that party realizes this and is involved, but who knows...

thanks for the rest of the encouragement though.

LondonBroil

12-20-2004, 12:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i had mentioned in a post the other day that 2+2 is the 9,700th busiest website on the internet. while i am not poking fun at anyone, in comparison, UPF ranks 197,000 in traffic.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you find out this info? Is there a site that lists the amount of traffic for the busiest sites?

bdk3clash

12-20-2004, 01:20 AM

Alexa.com keeps rankings like this.

sublime

12-20-2004, 02:17 AM

this is really going to open the floodgates for the trolls and morons into this site

yeah but they might buy a book

MelchyBeau

12-20-2004, 02:26 AM

wow, lots of postings, I scanned most of them and didn't see an answer to a question that's been sitting in my head. What events will this poker series have? I personally would like to see other games besides Hold em played.

Oh and will we get bracelets or something of the sort?

When it comes around I'll be looking at my bankroll to see if I got the cash to enter and still be safe with my money situation.

As for educating the fish, Theory of poker is #368, SSH is 987, and HEPFAP is #221 on Amazons best sellers list. The fish are already getting the materials to learn. You can own the text book, and go to class, yet still come out failing. I wouldn't worry about more fish being educated. In fact things like this tend to create more fish than educate them.

Melch

Joe Tall

12-20-2004, 02:49 AM

Very interesting development, Granny, jek and the czars, well done.

Good luck with your venture.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Freudian

12-20-2004, 10:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]

that is certainly what a site like party would think about this on first glance. however, upon further analysis, it becomes clear that the point of participation for party would be to show support to this community. this community pours a crap load of dollars into the party poker holes every day, so it would probably be EV- for them to snub the tourney.

we certainly are hoping that party realizes this and is involved, but who knows...

thanks for the rest of the encouragement though.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no reason for Party to snub it (especially if by size they can claim the right to have the finals). Just that they will for all intents and purposes treat it as a single (or two, if they have the final also) tournament at Party more than anything.

I suspect the risk of any Party player deciding to boycott Party because it doesn't promote the tour as a whole enough would be close to zero.

I have no idea how everything works out. I am just saying that online casinos/pokerrooms have much more reason to be protective of their current playerbase than the participating casinos in the WPT. I suspect none of them wants to lose customers to their competitiors and all of them plan to steal some customers from their competitors.

It is hard to to discuss though since we don't know much about the tour and how the casinos will act. It is possible that there is much more love and altruism between pokerrooms than I would give them credit for. I will follow it will interest. It will be interesting to see how much support a tour like this will have from both online players and the real-life tournament pros.

Steven Punk

12-20-2004, 11:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well, you people didn't understand my Steven Punk persona, and you don't understand poor tyfromm. <sigh>

[/ QUOTE ]

Tyfromm,

You sir may be a lot of things but 1 thing that you are not of never will be is a Punk.

I may have been on sibattlecle but can not, NAY, must not allow your insolin to continue. Never ever try to pass yourself off as a Punk lest you reep the constaquence of losing your soul.

-Punk

Time passes and a thing changes yet Punk remains purched like a jeraff

dogmeat

12-20-2004, 12:12 PM

Granny - try to relax a little.

I think the idea is great, and I know I will be playing is some of the tournaments, but the idea that there is some irony is also shared by me.

This was not a "hot" thread, and it could be considered Spam by many - it is ironic that this would become a sticky.

However, I think most people will also agree that the idea is one of general interest - and one where more interest will be generated, so the sticky makes sense.

This does not make it less ironic however.

Good Luck (but you might want to let the others handle press conferences).

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

GrannyMae

12-20-2004, 01:06 PM

Freudian,

your original post made perfect sense and was almost word for word the initial reaction i had received from someone close to party (not a party employee)

the initial reaction was that this series would be good for everyone *but* party. when i made some contacts at party, i was told that they would love to show support for ISOP through advertising or some other form, but really did not need the tourney. the contact at party was very supportive and actually posed the same questions.

for example, the response from the chief was "Granny, we'd love to be a part of ISOP, but are not sure if there is value in staging an actual tournament in the series, but let us know what we can do to support it."

so my response is that if they are willing to support it, then i think it would be a great idea to just go ahead and stage the event instead of just being an advertiser or sponsor.

here is the bottom line, ISOP is a tourney league that while not only open to posters, is certainly an event that was created with the 2+2 community in mind. the posters here are HEAVY party and skin players, but in the big scheme of things, the players that may try another site or three due to ISOP will undoubtedly always remain party players (i.e. ISOP is of little threat to harm party's numbers).

given the low threat that ISOP presents to party, given that staging one of the stops at party would show tremendous support for 2+2 posters, then it seems like a perfect fit and great gesture to hold an event. party has not snubbed us. there was an offer made from the *very top* to support ISOP through other ways (sponsorship etc), so we in the ISOP crew would love to see party go ahead and hold an event since they have shown support for the program anyway.

as it stands, i promised to get back to party with an answer on "how it would benefit them" along with the final detailed proposal. that is happening this week or next, and that's why i was not able to go past the 'who knows...' comment.

i was challenged to tell them how it will benefit them to be an active participating site, rather than a sponsor or advertiser. my response to them this week will be an echo of what i have just posted about it being a great gesture to the community here, and could not hurt their bottom line or marketing plans due to the fact that they have grown to such levels. since ISOP could never really hurt party and skins, then why NOT make a bunch of 2+2ers happy. seems like nothing but EV+, and as a matter of fact, we would LOVE to see them host the first event.

your original comments were very intuitive Freudian, and within a week to 10 days we will see exactly what role party will play. let's hope it is one of a tourney host, but we are proud that they want to support us in some form. it is only the form that is yet to be determined.

SAV

12-20-2004, 01:47 PM

Granny,

When you speak again with party poker officials, you should use the "steal their thunder" concept, a concept party poker officials are well familiar with.

Remember when paradise poker was the top site in online poker? Then Party came along and stole their thunder thru the use of smart marketing and by offering many new-at-the-time games and options to poker players, such as tournaments, PL and NL games, etc.

Now that party is the number one site, it has to continue offering new games and options to poker players to remain the number one site. If they do not join ISOP, they will be letting these other smaller sites steal their thunder by offering new games and options - ISOP - to poker players.

tyfromm

12-20-2004, 02:00 PM

Freudian

12-20-2004, 02:25 PM

Online poker is definately a dog eat dog world for the simple reason that consumers can switch brand almost instantly and without penalty.

jek187

12-20-2004, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but you might want to let the others handle press conferences

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a brilliant idea. We all know I never offend anybody. /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

EmptySeat

12-20-2004, 02:55 PM

This was not a "hot" thread, and it could be considered Spam by many - it is ironic that this would become a sticky.

This is something Mason wants to see succeed, but it's also something of general interest to the Zoo community. JEK does similar things on BonusWhores. The purpose of 2+2's forums at their root, is to promote 2+2 and 2+2's interests. It's not like Mason CrossStickied it in all the forums, he merely just stuck it up in one forum (out of how many? 30?) that it's very relevant to.

Anyone who thinks this is Spam, needs to remember that these are 2+2's forums, not our own little personal playground. If it helps 2+2, it will make "our" forum better anyways. I don't see one sticky in the IG forum about a 2+2 HQed event as Spam at all.

jek187

12-20-2004, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is really going to open the floodgates for the trolls and morons into this site

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also going to open the floodgates for said morons to be playing in more big buy-in tourneys. I think this outweighs the increase in drivel we'll pick up.

GrannyMae

12-20-2004, 05:25 PM

When you speak again with party poker officials, you should use the "steal their thunder" concept, a concept party poker officials are well familiar with.

Remember when paradise poker was the top site in online poker? Then Party came along and stole their thunder thru the use of smart marketing and by offering many new-at-the-time games and options to poker players, such as tournaments, PL and NL games, etc.

Now that party is the number one site, it has to continue offering new games and options to poker players to remain the number one site. If they do not join ISOP, they will be letting these other smaller sites steal their thunder by offering new games and options - ISOP - to poker players.

can i cut and paste this for my final email to them sav??

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

seriously, thanks for eloquently pointing out another 'take' on this.

i think party, and ALL of the sites involved in this program are the stone cold nuts. nobody has been a bigger champion and supporter of online poker than granny. NOBODY. and that's not just Paradise, it is party and all of the industry. i was playing party when they could not get a full ring game going, so i have not only supported them with my words, but also with my actions.

but, i think party is at such critical mass with all the things they offer that adding ISOP to the mix may have looked at first glance to be a nuisance. however, they did not reject the proposal immediately. the fact that they asked for us to help them understand why ISOP would be a good fit, indicates that they clearly value the 2+2 community. that means it is now our job to finish the sell. we are greatful for this opportunity and hope we can get them to look at in ways that you mentioned in your remarks.

without divulging the list of sites, i am SUPER proud of the properties that have shown interest. the list of potential year-one sponsors is a list of sites that rank the very highest on issues of integrity, support and community involvement. they also rank high on traffic (i.e. we have some very large sites that are looking like they are commited)

there are no start-ups on our list, so this means that the sites that have shown interest are *not* doing this merely to snatch customers from the competition. they are doing this because they realize that any buzz created within a community like 2+2 is a buzz that is going to be good for everyone when looking at this from a broader scope.

there simply is nothing on the internet even close to 2+2. this is not only the BEST place to come for anything poker, but it really is the ONLY place to come. our 20,000 members plus our 20,000 browsers are a force and a source.

we are a force by sheer numbers and quality and we are a source for a tremendous amount of site revenue when taken as a whole. i would venture a guess that the average 2+2er will not only contribute exponentially more in rake to poker sites, but the average 2+2er will still be playing long after the casual player has come and gone. also, how much could it actually cost them in lost business? i would maintain that it will add to their business. but even if they did not agree with the numbers i would use to support this, i don't think they would disagree with the intangible value of the goodwill that ISOP would create.

let's say a string of regular 2+2ers win a few events. do you know how much value there would be in the ensuing discussions after each event? you could not put a price on the frenzy this community creates when they decide to back it.

just ask the empire500 guy
/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

for this, we should be rewarded with participation in projects like ISOP.

finally, to freudian.

you said:

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect the risk of any Party player deciding to boycott Party because it doesn't promote the tour as a whole enough would be close to zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you serious? who the F said anything even remotely like this? of course nobody would boycott party over deciding not to be involved! we would not want that!

your credibility on contributing here just took a nose dive with that melodramatic statement. why would you even suggest something that smacks of adversity? have you been trolling all along here?

yes freudian, i realize that nobody will boycott any site that turned us down. for you to suggest that is even how we think makes you a trouble maker imo.

boycott??

R
O
F
L

(sorry homer)

eurythmech

12-20-2004, 07:07 PM

Hey there, I heard about this whole ISOP deal a few days ago but only took time today to read through this thread and I have to say I'm thrilled! I myself don't have the bankroll right now to pay for a $1k tournament without sattelites. But nonetheless if this proves to be as successful as I hope it will be, I will be thrilled to watch every single event.

Now I assume you guys have thougt of the potential problems of having thousands of people logging on simultaneously to watch a final table at the ISOP, so instead I'´ll ask this:

A large portion in the enjoyment of watching events such as WPT and WSOP on the TV is you recognize a lot of the players, and can follow them through multiple events and see how they do over the course of a year or so. With internet poker, people could be using different usernames for different sites, and of course a player can be totally anonymous if he so wishes. Will it be in the interest of you guys (as I assume you will be managing this whole apparatus somehow?) to encourage players to have their real life name available to the public? Or do you not consider this to be a very interesting point as most of the people "in the game" will know anyway who everyone of the top players are?

Mason Malmuth

12-20-2004, 09:07 PM

Hi Dog:

The reason this thread got sticky is that I was getting asked in person and via email about what this was. Then I noticed the thread where it was being well explained. So I made it stick. In a couple of days we'll unstick it.

Best wishes,
Mason

La Brujita

12-20-2004, 09:38 PM

My two cents: hell its Twoplustwo's site and if they want to sticky their own promotion more power to them.

They don't really owe us an explanation.

That being said I did enjoy the irony pointed out.

jasonHoldEm

12-20-2004, 09:45 PM

Hi Mason,

Just my .02, I think you should leave this stickied until the ISOP forum launches. Doing so will prevent multiple threads on the same subject (and this one already has a lot of answers provided).

Has anyone else realized that the ISOP final is very likely to create the internet's first millionaire tournament winner?

J

Freudian

12-21-2004, 08:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
this community pours a crap load of dollars into the party poker holes every day, so it would probably be EV- for them to snub the tourney.

we certainly are hoping that party realizes this and is involved, but who knows...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

are you serious? who the F said anything even remotely like this? of course nobody would boycott party over deciding not to be involved! we would not want that!

your credibility on contributing here just took a nose dive with that melodramatic statement. why would you even suggest something that smacks of adversity? have you been trolling all along here?

yes freudian, i realize that nobody will boycott any site that turned us down. for you to suggest that is even how we think makes you a trouble maker imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could I ever interpret the first quote as you even implying that Party could be hurt by not participating?

I require a certain intellectual honesty from those I discuss with and your personal outburst is not ok with me. I think you should be very careful about accusing others of of making a "melodramatic statement" when you start swinging madly around yourself accusing others.

Feel free to clarify how it would be -EV for Party to "snub" the community if you don't expect their player base to be affected at all.

MrDannimal

12-21-2004, 11:44 AM

If it helps, start a thread titled "Post here if you'd like to see Party host an ISOP event", and then when you've got a ton of replies just forward the link to them.

I'd like to see Party host one because I have an account there and it's one less account to create/interface to learn/deposit to make for me to take part in an event there.

adanthar

12-21-2004, 12:25 PM

Hey Granny,

One very, very good reason for Party to host an event:

What's the promotional value of holding The Biggest Championship Event With The Biggest Prize Ever in Online Poker?

Sell it this way. Don't give them a regular event...give them the final.

I guarantee you that if someone wins a million dollars online playing a 5,000 buyin poker event they'll get *network news* coverage if nothing else.

fnord_too

12-21-2004, 04:22 PM

It seems to me that the upside to PP is simple: There will be a core of people who follow the tour. Not all of them currently play on party. Most of them (even the ones who currently play on party) will be checking out the competition even if only to play in the ISOP. Why would party not want the people who don't currently play there but who are intending on playing the ISOP events not be forced to play at part (lot of negatives in that sentence, but I think I got it right).

Basically, there exist people who do not play on party but who will play ISOP events. By party hosting an ISOP event, these people will be exposed to party.

Also, there are people who play at party but not at all the ISOP sites, these people will be exposed to the competition.

Basically, party is probably viewing this as something that will cannabalize their own tournaments. That is the wrong way to look at it, since tournament players will go to where the best tournaments are. Party is in a position of either diverting some of the tournament market they already have to new events they are hosting versus having them diverted to other sites. I'm kind of shocked that there marketing department hasn't realized this.

Freudian

12-21-2004, 05:15 PM

I guess one reason for Party not to participate (should they choose that route) would be that PokerStars (who I assume won't take part) has their own event in WCOOP that is bigger in scope. So it would be possible that Party would prefer to flesh out the Party Poker Million events to get a series of tournaments to rival PokerStars.

Anyway, we don't know until everything is announced.

jek187

12-21-2004, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A large portion in the enjoyment of watching events such as WPT and WSOP on the TV is you recognize a lot of the players, and can follow them through multiple events and see how they do over the course of a year or so. With internet poker, people could be using different usernames for different sites, and of course a player can be totally anonymous if he so wishes. Will it be in the interest of you guys (as I assume you will be managing this whole apparatus somehow?) to encourage players to have their real life name available to the public? Or do you not consider this to be a very interesting point as most of the people "in the game" will know anyway who everyone of the top players are?

[/ QUOTE ]

You bring up a good issue here. Basically, we have a thin line to toe here.

On the one hand we have those players who value their privacy and will want to remain completely anon (I personally would like to be known as the Internet's best player, but some poker players are strange, or maybe I'm just strange, anyways...) This is the Internet, and anonimity is a part of that, like it or not.

On the other hand, we have players such as yourself that will want to know exactly who everyone is, and you are the sort of player that will form the backbone of this event.

So, here is what we're going to do here:
Notable players ("names" and those who move to the top of the leaderboard) will be encouraged, but not be required to give up their real name. Those who decline to have their real names revealed, will still have to have their site username's associated with each other. For example, if I were to play 3 tournies and somehow make the leaderboard, and I didn't want my name released, my leaderboard entry would look like this:

jekSiteA/jekSiteB/jekSiteC XXXX Pts

However, if someone like Mason made the leaderboard, it would simply read:
Mason Malmuth XXXX Pts

I think most people will reveal their true names, although we'll still have a couple I'm sure that won't. I think this is the fairest way to deal with this issue. I welcome any thoughts on the subject though.

GrannyMae

12-21-2004, 06:44 PM

PokerStars (who I assume won't take part)

why would you assume this? just curious?

GrannyMae

12-21-2004, 07:15 PM

Feel free to clarify how it would be -EV for Party to "snub" the community if you don't expect their player base to be affected at all

my statement was part of an open discussion in response to your original declaration that party (and now stars) would have no reason to participate in ISOP. i'm not sure if you know this, but 2+2 is a discussion board.

i have clarified 3 times that they have not snubbed us in any way, and that they actually made an offer to support ISOP through some route. i also stated that my use of the word snub was misplaced, but you still seem to be trolling for trouble. my use of the word snub related to them staging an event as opposed to just supporting through sponsorship and/or advertising.

i think it is no secret that my favorite site has always been paradise. i have no firm commitment from paradise, yet i would still continue to be a staunch supporter of the site. point being that participation in ISOP has no bearing on how i personally feel about a site. i'm able to make this distiction because i understand that business is business and sites will make their own choices based on what is best for them.

at the same time, i would expect the sites that have firmly commited to NOT take exception to me making a comment like "i love paradise, always have, always will". this statment will no more discourage them from being an ISOP sponsor than i would be apt to show ill will toward any sites that don't Sponsor. all these issues are unrelated to the subject we were discussing. YOU were the person who suggested that anyone would boycott a site over something as silly as a business decision.

how does a rational person go from my suggestion that party's involvement in ISOP would be EV+ to you making a statement that suggests some sort of boycott? you are irresponsible to even suggest that we would want a boycott of any site that chose to pass on sponsorship.

i would play any site that was not a sponsor of the ISOP without hesitation. for you to fabricate some sort of threat out of my words is highly dubious.

are you trying to start a similar project? that's the only rational explanation i can think of for your comments.

regardless, HEAR YE, HEAR YE!
let it be known that my support for party and ANY site that does not participate in ISOP would be unaffected by said decison, and i would encourage the same responsible, adult reaction from all 2+2 members.

merry christmas freudian

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/x0/noel.gif

Freudian

12-21-2004, 07:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars (who I assume won't take part)

why would you assume this? just curious?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they have WCOOP. I guess perhaps they would accept a ISOP tourney as part of WCOOP, but I would assume they would be more interested in building their own property.

Of course I don't know, but it would make sense.

Freudian

12-21-2004, 08:10 PM

I didn't mean boycott as in (binary) picketing and starting petitions. Just as in players preferring to play at pokerrooms that had an ISOP tournament. I don't think will happen. Which was my whole point about that.

I didn't take your comment as a threat as much as a "if they are smart they will do this" thingy. There is a semantic difference between claiming that "party's involvement in ISOP would be EV+" and claiming that their non-involvement would be -EV. And adding "..." after a sentance also come off looking a bit odd. I don't claim that you had any malicious intent in what you wrote. I don't think you did. But the way you wrote it led to my comment. Not some sininster plan from a competitor to ISOP. I promise.

Anyway, we probably don't have all that differing views on what it can mean to a poker room and what it won't mean. This is what happens when the lid is opened prematurely. It will be easier to discuss when the announcement is made.

GrannyMae

12-21-2004, 08:24 PM

I guess perhaps they would accept a ISOP tourney as part of WCOOP

i think that's an EXCELLENT idea? got any contacts there?

see how fast we are friends now?
/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

seriously freudian, i'm a very passionate person. that's what people get when they deal with me.

however, this passion is a wonderful asset when someone gets involved with me. sure, i have a big mouth. i'm GRANNY!!

however, if you ever were to decide to do something like ISOP or any business venture with me, you would have the greatest partner in the world.

ISOP really is all about competition and adding some spice to a great community that is populated by the most competitive (and passionate) people in the world. whatever 11 sites end up as ISOP sponsors for year one will undoubtedly be pleased with their decison. however, the non-11 that take a pass on this will not have snubbed us in any way.

2+2 supports internet and B&M poker and our memebers and site founders certainly would never veer from this support. incidentally, that's one of the reasons we chose to go with only established and trustworthy properties. i'm not saying that none of the start-ups are good sites, just that we chose to go with the sites that have proven themselves as leaders.

speaking of proving themselves, i'll take this moment to back out of this discussion and let this thread die. the point of it was vigorous discussion and we certainly have accomplished that. now it is time to put on my business nightgown, get the deals closed, and get this thing launched.

forgive my passion, i just can't help myself sometimes.

peace