Terrible button play

[Chris Daddy Cool]

yesterday's 20/40 bay101 session. monday night crowd of loose/tight weakness.

which do you hate/like more?


Hand 1:
I'm on the button with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

a new player posts in between the blinds. a weak player openlimps in ep. folded to me. i raise. poster calls. blinds fold. 3 way action.

flop: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

check.check.check.

turn: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

check. weak player looks at the board long and hard and bets. I raise. poster folds. weakie calls.

river: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif

check.check.


Hand 2:
I'm on the button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and raise after a loose/aggro thinker openlimper utg. blinds call. utg calls. 4 way action.

flop: Q /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

blinds check. i bet. blinds fold. utg raises. i 3-bet. utg calls.

turn: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

check. check.

river: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

utg bets. i raise. utg calls.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]

a new player posts in between the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

what does that mean?

[brassnuts]

I think I hate hand 2 less.

[private joker]

Hand 2 looks good. Hand 1 looks bad. You raised PF and get heads-up on the river against a weak opponent. The perfect scare card comes up and he checks to you, saying "Please buy this pot with a bet so I can fold weakly to your river bluff. Pretty pleaase?" And you check behind.

(This would be actual advice instead of fishy rambling had I ever played a single hand of 20-40).

[Vaftrudner]

Fancy. /v

[sthief09]

I think you gotta bet the flop in hand 1. I don't know if the A will change anything, even if he's weak. had you bet the flop, I would've been all for firing 3 barrels given the A river, and hand 2 I'm not really sure what you were thinking. I assume the raise on the river is for value, and I also assume you wanted to get to showdown for 2 BB and not 3, since you'd have to call the laggy UTG if he check-raised the Q. because of this, I assume you fold to a river 3-bet. it's an interesting line, but I think you're fearing a check-raise too much, even though you probably have to pay him off.

[SCfuji]

hand 1, bet the river against a weak opponent.
hand 2, if anybody could tell me why checking the turn to a card that you represented on the flop can help you in anyway please explain.

thanks

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
hand 2, if anybody could tell me why checking the turn to a card that you represented on the flop can help you in anyway please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chris probably feels his opponent is capable of check-raising that scary turn with less than trip queens, which would put Chris in a tough position if check-raised.

Also, given his opponent's play so far, what can he put him on? Unless I'm missing something (so it seems likely), probably a pocket pair so Chris doesn't have to worry about giving a free card.

So the river raise... well he can easily fold to a 3-bet. It's fairly likely his opponent is value betting a lower pair. But can Chris expect to be ahead 50% of the time that his raise is called (and this assumes that his opponent only ever 3-bets with a better hand)? I don't think so at the moment, perhaps I can be persuaded otherwise.

EDIT: The river raise might have something to do with making a better hand fold, but I don't think it will given the suspicious play so far.

[ErrantNight]

let me preface by saying... i don't think i feel confident enough in my play to make moves like these in the correct situations...

i think i would bet the river in hand 1 if weakie wasn't the type to get determined to see a showdown once invested on the turn. absent a read i think i make a bet here... but i also think i'd fold, which i believe josh suggested i should be willing to pay off, and i don't think i would...

i'm not sure i mind hand 2... given the read of him as aggressive but thinking (capable of making a lay down?). part of me screams for a turn bet, but i think that could backfire against this type of opponent in two ways: he could c/r the turn (and still not necessarily have the Q), or c/r the river (i'm assuming that even against a call on the turn you must value bet the blank river if checked to?). subsequently, barring any such Q having trickery/tomfoolery, a turn bet might also drive this thinker out if he doesn't have a Q, since we just represented it so strongly. not only does the river bet not mean much from this player, there's a very good chance we're ahead here, and he's gonna let us now if we're not.
the more i look at it, the more i like it... although conceivably this is just fawning at plays that borderline fishy play.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hand 1:

weak guy showed J9o for flopped OESD and MHIG.

hand 2:
utg showed 87s and MHIG.

hand 1 i can't really explain all that well. all i knew was i thought my 6 was good and he was betting a draw and luckily for me i was right, so betting the river probably wouldn't have been any use anyways

hand 2, sthief09's comment was exactly right.