Fishy play. Raise on the come

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Bay 101 4/8 stud table, great great table. with practically the whole table seeing 3rd street and many seeing 4th and 5th.

anyhoo. low card brings it in. an A /images/graemlins/club.gif calls. i call next up with [8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif completes. a coldcaller. the bring in calls. the A calls. I call. i think one of my hearts is out.

4th street. i dont' know what other people caught, but another one of my hearts is gone and I catch the 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, nobody else's board seems to have improved. checked to the Jack who bets. everybody in the hand calls including me.

5th street, I catch the 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. the Jack pairs something low and has something like J22 showing. nobody else seems to have anything. Jack bets. I raise. one fold one call behind. the Jack shakes his head and calls.

6th street: i catch a complete blank.
check check check.

7th street: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

checked to me. I bet. fold. Jack calls. jacks up no good. flush very good.
everybody gasps and murmers at my 5th street play.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]

checked to me. I bet. fold. Jack calls. jacks up no good. flush very good.
everybody gasps and murmers at my 5th street play.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because a lot of these people don't undertand the value of a big draw in a multi-way pot.

Now, I haven't hit a flush draw in ages or anything, but that doesn't mean you made the wrong play. I'm not sure what your question is, but it seems like the hand was played fine.

Nice to see they have stud games out there.

[Nick_Foxx]

its not a bad play, you succeeded in getting a free card on sixth street

the bad play was from the player with jacks over deuces

[Chris Daddy Cool]

the main problem with the 5th street raise, if there is any, is how likely will the Jack 3-bet me or not give me the free card on 6th? if he plays it more aggressively i'm putting in more bets with the worst of it.

but yea, i haven't played that much stud in my life, but a thing i see is people don't raise enough with flush draws on the big streets. they're very willing to do it on 4th street, but hesitate to do it on 5th, since you don't actually get a "free" card on 6th since the cost of the 5th street raise is the same since 5th and 6th are both big streets.

but raising
a) might win the pot right there (though unlikely at a low limit stud table
b) since it's likely that you'll get bet into on 6th street if you don't raise 5th you'll get the chance to make one extra bb when you do hit your hand on 6th be betting, but costs the same amount if you miss on 6th by checking.

sounds right, right?

[mostsmooth]

i wouldnt raise 5th. you dont have the cards to back into a hand that could beat the probable Js up in a showdown, so why put in a raise and possibly make it heads up. you need to make the flush to win anyway and you said nobody other than the Js up appeared to have anything, id let everybody call behind. if the other players were between the bettor and me, then i would consider the raise on 5th.
but maybe im crazy/stupid /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[berya]

You hand summary is a little shaky. In the beggining the jack is right behind you and on 5th he bets and you seem to raise right after him.

If jack bet on 5th and had 2 calls in between then GOOD play. If jack bet on 5th had 1 call in between OK.

If Jack bet and you were next to act and raised then it's a BAD play because you are looking at two pair and should be inviting weak calls behind you not getting rid of them.

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
but a thing i see is people don't raise enough with flush draws on the big streets. they're very willing to do it on 4th street, but hesitate to do it on 5th, since you don't actually get a "free" card on 6th since the cost of the 5th street raise is the same since 5th and 6th are both big streets.


[/ QUOTE ]

Having a 4 flush on 4th and having a 4 flush on 5th are drastically different situations. If you have it on 4th you will actually make your flush more times than you will miss it. If you get in on 5th you must have a few callers to make betting on the come correct. Or I guess you could have alot of folders in which case you increase your chances or winning right there or if you back into a 2 pair type hand. This is why I don't think you see many people bet 4 flushes on 5th

[ QUOTE ]
b) since it's likely that you'll get bet into on 6th street if you don't raise 5th you'll get the chance to make one extra bb when you do hit your hand on 6th be betting, but costs the same amount if you miss on 6th by checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this point. I will try to be more 4 flushes on 5th if I don't fear a reraise and I will act after the likely bettor.

However I don't think many players (at least not my opponents) think this hard.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
You hand summary is a little shaky. In the beggining the jack is right behind you and on 5th he bets and you seem to raise right after him.

If jack bet on 5th and had 2 calls in between then GOOD play. If jack bet on 5th had 1 call in between OK.

If Jack bet and you were next to act and raised then it's a BAD play because you are looking at two pair and should be inviting weak calls behind you not getting rid of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

my understanding was that the ace behind him had first action until the guy paired his board and then he would lead off.
Either way, ballsy play that paid off nicely

[Michael Emery]

Yes, this is very Fishy play in short. Third st. was fine. You made a debatable call on 4th street that I wont argue with too much since you expect several callers behind you again. But in most cases with small cards and no improvement on 4th (pair, improving to a 3 strait for ex.) your hand should be folded.

But the 5th st. raise was awful for several reasons. You have 9 high /images/graemlins/shocked.gif. You have a drawing hand with your 4-flush and gutshot that would like the rest of the players trailing in behind you to pay you off if you hit. You therefore definitely dont want to knock anyone out which is what your raise on 5th did. I'm assuming you justified your raise at the moment thinking "hey I'll buy a free card". That you did, but you also prevented anyone else from paying your flush off with your raise. Did I mention you had 9 high on 5th? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif I love aggressive play Chris, but just make sure your aggression is warranted in the situation.

Mike Emery

[Michael Emery]

I dont know. I keep thinking about this hand and maybe its not as bad as I originaly thought. Just to be strait my main problem with the play of the hand is the raise on 5th could kill off possible callers behind you. Which needless to say, with this type of hand you want in. But I do love buying free cards. I just dont think its quite the right situation.

Mike Emery

[timmer]

[ QUOTE ]
everybody gasps and murmers at my 5th street play.

[/ QUOTE ]


I guess they have never seen a semi bluff raise with two way draw. Much less folded to one and been correct to do so.

Nice way to buy a free river card though.

I sometimes like to smooth call here with out good secondary outs to a winner. If you think that if you hit your hand it will be good. It is sometime worth it to risk running into a FH because of all the extra bets you can gain if you hit or save if you miss.

If their announced and open pairs are live Im much more likely to make the semi bluff raise/freecard play. Hopeing that some of those two pairs might dump them. If I think I might be against a better draw as well as some two pair hands Im back to smooth calling. If the going gets really rough I might dump this small two way draw.

Drawing dead and getting there really really sucks.

timmer

[ToneLoc]

Hello.
Really not sure I understand the 5th st. raise:
- you're getting rid of non dangerous one pair hands, which is not necessary as your chance to back into a winning two pair hand are zero.
- You don't really buy a free card, as you pay for it in advance.
- You would probably make that extra big-bet anyway by raising the guy on 6th st if you hit then...

All this being said, I am just starting 7Stud, so would be happy to learn about hidden merits of this play.

J.

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
If Jack bet and you were next to act and raised then it's a BAD play because you are looking at two pair and should be inviting weak calls behind you not getting rid of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if our hero doesn't expect the others to cold call 2.

You are right on all other counts. Espically the goofy HH

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
- you're getting rid of non dangerous one pair hands, which is not necessary as your chance to back into a winning two pair hand are zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. Because the HH is a bit shaky we don't know exactly when the raise went in. Did the raise go in like this J22 - bet, call , fold, hero raises, call , call or was it J22 - bet , hero raises , fold , cold call , call. This first scenario is great. The second is not very good unless you are pretty sure you can get at least 1 cold caller.

[ QUOTE ]
- You don't really buy a free card, as you pay for it in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, but in this case you are putting all the money in when you have an edge. When if you just call and then brick on 6th you will put 1/2 of that money in when you were behind yet had odds to draw out.

[ QUOTE ]
- You would probably make that extra big-bet anyway by raising the guy on 6th st if you hit then...


[/ QUOTE ]
Since you assume you hit the flush on 6th....If we called 5th. We will get in a raise after J22 bets. If we raised 5th we will get in out own bet.
But, if you assume you brick out on 6th. If we raised we might very well get a free card when we want one. But if we just called we are probably gonna have to pay for 6th. This really isn't an analysis of how you will make an extra bet...you are really just saving a bet if you brick.

Now what happens on the river?
-If you called....You will probably get bet into until you put in a raise. Except on the river when probable Jacks up might/should check to you once it is so clear you are on a drawing hand

So this is
(1,1,1 or 2 but most likely 1) if you hit your draw on 7th
(1,2,1) if you hit your draw on 6th
(1,1,0) if you miss your draw

-If you raised on 5th and bricked on 6th...you probably got a free card on 6th . Because you took the free card you will probably well get bet into on the river. In which case you have earned an extra bet because you can now raise.

So this is
(2,0,2 maybe 1) if you hit your draw on 7th
(2,1,1) if you hit your draw on 6th
(2,0,0) if you miss totally

Also if you add this play into your game you might be able to get better mileage out of trips or other hands when people think you are just trying to buy free cards.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You hand summary is a little shaky. In the beggining the jack is right behind you and on 5th he bets and you seem to raise right after him.

If jack bet on 5th and had 2 calls in between then GOOD play. If jack bet on 5th had 1 call in between OK.

If Jack bet and you were next to act and raised then it's a BAD play because you are looking at two pair and should be inviting weak calls behind you not getting rid of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

my understanding was that the ace behind him had first action until the guy paired his board and then he would lead off.

[/ QUOTE ]
the J still appears to have changed position. the J completed the bring in and our hero made the last call, indicating the jack is on our heros immediate left. then on 5th the J bets and hero raises, then a fold and a caller then the J calls, indicating the J is on our heros immediate right.

[ToneLoc]

[ QUOTE ]
So this is
(2,0,2) if you hit your draw on 7th
(2,1,1) if you hit your draw on 6th
(2,0,0) if you miss totally

Also if you add this play into your game you might be able to get better mileage out of trips when people think you are just trying to buy free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you take a free card on the turn, you are marked with a drawing hand, and the 2 pair guy is probably going to check it to you if he has not improve, isn't he?

[ToneLoc]

Turn meaning 6th street, I just play too much hold'em /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]

Yep, but in this case you are putting all the money in when you have an edge. When if you just call and then brick on 6th you will put 1/2 of that money in when you were behind yet had odds to draw out.

[/ QUOTE ]
what edge?

[kirisim]

[ QUOTE ]
Bay 101 4/8 stud table, great great table. with practically the whole table seeing 3rd street and many seeing 4th and 5th.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would hope they would at least see 3rd street, especially if they posted the ante.

[jon_1van]

yeah...I thought about this...you got your reply in before I got my edit in.

I think a good player will check it to you. But you might induce a bluff. So you probably have some checks to the drawer, and some bets "just because", and some induced bluffs.

[jon_1van]

Assume J22 has 2 pair
Assume A has a pair of A (bad assumption but it gives a nice "worst case")

Js 2c Jd Td 2h 40.7%
9c 8h 7h 5h 3h 37.5%
9s 5s Ac 6c Ad 21.8%

You win more than 1/3rd of the time. So you want as much money going in on this street as long as you aren't losing callers.


If you assume 1 more dead heart your chance of winning is about 34.9%. This is still an overlay albeit a small one.

[ToneLoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a good player will check it to you. But you might induce a bluff. So you probably have some checks to the drawer, and some bets "just because", and some induced bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still, in that case, he will not pay your raise.
Bottomline, you do not figure to make or save much by raising, but you will get rid of non dangerous drawing hands... So looks like calling is better?

[jon_1van]

I think calling is better unless you are acting last on 5th street. This way you don't make the non dangerous caller cold call 2.

And since the Hand History is a bit ambigious we don't know if it was bet, raise or bet, call, raise

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
Assume J22 has 2 pair
Assume A has a pair of A (bad assumption but it gives a nice "worst case")

Js 2c Jd Td 2h 40.7%
9c 8h 7h 5h 3h 37.5%
9s 5s Ac 6c Ad 21.8%

You win more than 1/3rd of the time. So you want as much money going in on this street as long as you aren't losing callers.


If you assume 1 more dead heart your chance of winning is about 34.9%. This is still an overlay albeit a small one.

[/ QUOTE ]
i was looking at it in terms of the ep raise probably making it heads up where we would have no edge. hindsight tells us we got another caller, but i think we were fortunate to get a caller, especially if you are gonna only give credit for 1 pair to the cold caller.
/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[jon_1van]

the HH is ambigious

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
the HH is ambigious

[/ QUOTE ]
plus, its hard to tell what its saying /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jdanz]

this is faulty logic, if you raise on 5th st, you put in two bets over two sts, if you don't hit and three if you do, if you call you put in two over two if you don't hit and three over two if you do, you simply do not gain a free card with the first play. however you do keep more people in, which you want.

[Andy B]

Unless your hand is exceptionally live, you're less than 50% to complete a four-flush on fourth street.

[Andy B]

He might have gotten paid off nicelier if he hadn't made it.

[Andy B]

Is it really a "smooth call" if he has Nine-freaking-high?

[Andy B]

I would guess that your chance of buying the pot with a fifth-street raise is pretty close to nil.

[Andy B]

I'd like the fifth-street raise if you had made it after the other two guys called. You want them in there to pay you off when you hit, and you can't win unless you hit.

[patrick dicaprio]

thats a fine play in my book.

Pat