Pre-flop TT v. an EXTREMELY tight raiser

[blackaces13]

The MP player here is a young guy who seems to have some knowledge of how to play but is VERY adverse to risking money with agressive play. He only bets and raises monsters and calls down his medium and semi strong hands.

I'd say he's weak tight but actually he is semi-loose both before and after the flop. Not nearly loose enough for me to say that he's loose/passive either because that implies that he was a total fish yet he was much better than most 3/6 live players.

I believe this may have been the first hand I've seen him raise preflop in the hour I'd been at the table.

On to the hand: There were only 7 players at the table and MP guy was directly to my right, I honestly don't think that # of players at the table, position, or the fact that he was open raising had anything to do with his pre-f raising requirements but of course, that's just an assumption. Most of the table seemed to respect my raises.

2 folds to the MP young dude who open raises, I look down at TT...

I'll post what I did and the rest of the hand but I'd like to get some feedback on this one.

[thirddan]

i would fold...jacks are tougher i think...

[bigandblind]

You said that the rest of the table respects your raises. This leads me to suspect that your choice was to reraise.
this would also be my choice. Isolate and hope for the best.

[thirddan]

you are not choosing to isolate a weak player with a moderate holding here...

you are choosing to isolate an opponent that most likely has you destroyed...your read is that he won't raise preflop with anything but the best hands, this leads me to believe that KK/AA and possible QQ are his only holdings...

[bigandblind]

I have a tough time mucking medium pocket pairs and higher before any flop.

that is probably a sizable leak for me. so be it.

[Snoogins47]

If your read is that he will only do this with a big pair or possibly AK, you're gonna want to fold, unless you can count on half the table cold calling and you making huge amounts of money if you trip up.

Call me weak-tight, but the only hand I want to see here, I'm barely ahead of, and will get hardly any action from. If you flop an overpair, you're probably smoked. If not, this player description seems to be the kind that wouldn't call down with AK on a ragged board.

If his preflop raising standards are as tight as you claim them to be, TT is hardly better than say, 77. Or 55. JJ might be a tad better, because he might be making this raise with JJ. Depends on just how tight he really is.

I guess a 3bet wouldn't be out of the question here. You gain a lot of information if he caps it preflop. You also lose a lot more if he flat calls your 3bet with QQ or JJ and then calls you down, because he's as passive as you say.

Every part of me wants to fold this.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
i would fold...jacks are tougher i think...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think that's the right play as well. But TT is just a hard hand to fold and I couldn't bring myself to do it. So I did the next best thing and re-raised.

Let me just get on with the rest of the hand because its somewhat interesting IMO:

I re-raise, folded to the SB who is an UNBELIEVABLY big calling station and of course he calls. MP guy caps (of course) and I call as does the station in the SB. 3 to the flop 6.5 BBs:

K-Q-T (2 suited).

SB checks, MP leads, I raise, SB folds, MP 3 bets (his hands are shaking violently. I say "I can't believe I have this hand against 3 Kings". MP stares at the board anxiously with pursed lips that seems to hide a smile but doesn't respond)

I call it down.

So after deciding to push back preflop I now call down from the flop after a single raise with a SET.

Should I have thrown in a cap and see if he still led the turn?

[thirddan]

[ QUOTE ]
So I did the next best thing and re-raised.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is the next best thing...I think that if you are gonna play then cold calling is better since you give some of the other players a chance to get in, by 3betting you are kicking everyone out and you will most likley need a set to win this one so you would like some company in the hand...

Im not sure this matters but since you are heads up is the cap still 4 bets? if there is unlimited raising i probably wouldn't 4bet the flop, but if 4 is the cap i would be more likely to do it...

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i would fold...jacks are tougher i think...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think that's the right play as well. But TT is just a hard hand to fold and I couldn't bring myself to do it. So I did the next best thing and re-raised.

Let me just get on with the rest of the hand because its somewhat interesting IMO:

I re-raise, folded to the SB who is an UNBELIEVABLY big calling station and of course he calls. MP guy caps (of course) and I call as does the station in the SB. 3 to the flop 6.5 BBs:

K-Q-T (2 suited).

SB checks, MP leads, I raise, SB folds, MP 3 bets (his hands are shaking violently. I say "I can't believe I have this hand against 3 Kings". MP stares at the board anxiously with pursed lips that seems to hide a smile but doesn't respond)

I call it down.

So after deciding to push back preflop I now call down from the flop after a single raise with a SET.

Should I have thrown in a cap and see if he still led the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, look at the mess you got yourself into!

I can't tell you because I don't know the guy. But do you see AA enough here to merit the calldown? Would he 3bet AA on this board after you raise?

I would lean toward no from your description.

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I did the next best thing and re-raised.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is the next best thing...I think that if you are gonna play then cold calling is better since you give some of the other players a chance to get in, by 3betting you are kicking everyone out and you will most likley need a set to win this one so you would like some company in the hand...

Im not sure this matters but since you are heads up is the cap still 4 bets? if there is unlimited raising i probably wouldn't 4bet the flop, but if 4 is the cap i would be more likely to do it...

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to mention that too, about cold-calling... though I think it's horrible. Basically I think it comes down to the confidence in your read. If you're that confident that his raising standards are only big pairs, fold. If he may be doing this with a big ace, or even 99, then you might want to 3bet to test him a bit.

Now, if you're ultra confident in your read but can't lay down the hand, cold-calling is definitely the way to go.

[bigandblind]

I like how you played this. you still had 1 out to catch four of a kind. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

no seriously they convinced me that folding before the flop was your best option.

also, seems like you knew that you should not have called it down based on his uncontrollable shaking combined with your preflop read on him.

let the hand go. trust your read. a good read is worthless if you ignore it.

[blackaces13]

There was unlimited raising but it wouldn't apply until the turn because 3 players saw the flop.

Seems like I played this hand really badly pre-flop because I agree with you, folding is best and calling is better than re-raising because isolating a hand that likely has me killed is BAD news.

I think the problem is that I play mostly online where it is very difficult to have a good enough read on someone to fold TT. In this spot however, I think I should have. You pick up a LOT about people live and I'm not used to having that much info at my disposal.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
But do you see AA enough here to merit the calldown? Would he 3bet AA on this board after you raise?

I would lean toward no from your description.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, realize that my read was made stronger after this hand played out. I know this ruins what happened but I think I actually gave the results away long ago.

I sort of posted the read as what it became rather than what it was then and there at the table, which is a mistake. At the time I was maybe 70% confident that the read I ultimately got was correct. This hand cemented it though /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[HajiShirazu]

TT is actually pretty marginal in most cases. They don't have to be much tighter than average to make folding this hand correct. Against this guy, it's an easy fold.

[SeppDeitrich]

no, against the player you describe you should have folded preflop, and folded again on the flop when he makes it 3-bets.

[SeppDeitrich]

In case you were not aware, the shaking hands you describe in this post is straight from caro's book of poker tells. It means bad news with a fair degree of accuracy.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]


I don't think this is the next best thing...I think that if you are gonna play then cold calling is better since you give some of the other players a chance to get in, by 3betting you are kicking everyone out and you will most likley need a set to win this one so you would like some company in the hand...


[/ QUOTE ]

This plan to coldcall would be much worse than three-betting. With only three players remaining, Hero would only be getting 4:1 on his money even if everyone coldcalls behind him. He does not have the implied odds for a set unless the players behind him are very aggressive and take their hands too far, since he already knows that the PF raiser will not give him excessive action unless his hand improves even further.

Consequently, I believe that this is clearly a raise or fold situation.

[Cerril]

Well depending on how tight, he may only raise AA(6)/KK(6)/QQ(6)/AK(16)/AQs(4). So you're ahead slightly more than 50% of the time and if an ace or king hits you can get away every time.

Raising isn't terrible, since a cap pretty much guarantees AA/KK or maybe even AA, allowing you to believe him more likely to have overcards on a flop. Of course if it's going to get you heads up I'm not sure you can guarantee your equity without another worse hand following. That makes it a call or a fold.

[Cerril]

What a mess (the situation, not your play so much). I think here's a situation where you have to toss SSH and use your reads. This guy's not a bad enough player to make calling down a good thing since you're probably drawing to one out when he three bets you. He may be a terrible player, but for an online example, when I get raised on the flop by a sLP-P (your description) with an postflop AF of 0 (or 0.1) after a hundred hands or so, then I respect it unless I'm drawing to the nuts or already have a better hand than a set.