Advise on .5/1 vs 1/2 vs 2/4 party

[Jay36489]

At some point I read around here that Party 1/2 is actually tighter then 2/4 (I can't find it now). Does anyone here agree with this, and perhaps have a reason why?

I've moved from .5/1 to 1/2 and I'm having a bit of trouble. Its not enough hands to be sure, but I believe it's negative variance. How do you guys recomend playing 1/2? I've been using the tight starting hand table from SSH as it seems most tables have like 3-4 per flop, not 5-6. Any other advise?

Last, through bonus whoring I'm almost up to $1200 which is 300BB of 2/4. Should I move up or should I wait to make sure I am beating 1/2 first?

[_Kevin_]

I have about 13K hands at $1/$2 after moving up from $0.50/$1. I have tightened up a little preflop (15.75 VP$IP vs. 17.66 VP$IP) and gotten more aggressive (preflop raise about 9% from 7.5%). I've also gotten more aggressive postflop. I believe table selection is MUCH more important at $1/$2 (there aren't as many really bad players). I wouldn't recommend moving up until you can easily beat $1/$2. I'm winning 3+BB/100 at $1/$2 so it is beatable but I see much higher variance than I did at $0.5/$1. See this post for a good discussion of the various levels.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1369978&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=7&o=14&fpart=1

[Jay36489]

My VPIP is about 17%, same as it was in .5/1. what does VPIP measure exactly? Is it just preflop? My PFR is about 5.5%. Why is it so low compared to yours? I just use the SSH chart. Could it be just small sample size?

Edit, Oh and thanks for the link /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ajax410]

Don't move to 2/4 just because you have the bankroll.

One of the biggest appeals of the 300 BB rule is that it forces you to play a limit until you get 300 big bets for the next limit - if you're building your bankroll by bonus whoring and not by playing, you'll get eaten alive at 2/4.

Not that pre-flop play is particularly correlated with post-flop play, but if you're playing post-flop as passively as you are pre-flop, I question whether you should even be at 1/2. You need to develop an aggressive streak - and you need to do it as soon as you can - if you have any hope of maintaining a winning poker game (this isn't addressed as you, as I don't know how you play, but just in general).

Also, if you're just following the chart in SSH, you are missing out on a lot of value raises. A hand like KTs is worth a raise from CO with 3 limpers in front of you. If you're passing up these opportunities, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

Alex

[droolie]

You can't make your pf decisions based on a chart and expect to be a winner at the higher levels. The table dynamics (meaning the types of opponents you are up against) and number of players who have limped in front of you are just as important as position. The chart in SSH is a useful tool in teaching tight play to players who are way too loose pf. As you begin to develop your style a bit more you will frequently be raising hands that SSH recommends calling with. You will be mucking hands SSH recommends calling with. Why you will do this is because you know you are up against three LAG's who will make the hand you have unprofitable by raising and reraising behind you. Or conversely you will play more hands aggressively because you are up against a maniac you want to isolate or you want to steal from some mega-rocks.

[Jay36489]

Well, I was confident in my ability to beat .5/1 till I read those posts. Now you guys are freaking me out. Let me post some .5/1 stats and let me know what you think of them. I dont have the stats for my first 5000 hands but I have /5/1 for the last 8000. BB/100 over 8K hands 4.12. VPIP 17.31%, pre flop raise 5.24%, flop agg factor 1.44, turn 1.30, river .97, total aggression factor 1.38.

What other stats can I post? What am I doing wrong?

[hypermegachi]

VPIP is fine
preflop raise can go up to 8%
you're way too passive postflop. at the very least your total aggression should be 2.

[davelin]

FWIW

37K at 1/2 - about 36% seeing the flop
5K at 2/4 - about 33% seeing the flop

[therockofgibraltar]

[ QUOTE ]
through bonus whoring

[/ QUOTE ]

What's this?

[droolie]

bonus whoring is opening an account at a poker site and playing just enough hands to get the bonus they offer. You then withdraw out all your money and never return (unless another bonus is available) You can repeat this move at many different sites and build a sizeable BR on bonuses alone. Winning while playing poker is a bonus!

Go to bonuswhores.com to get some info

[therockofgibraltar]

cool!

[Jay36489]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
through bonus whoring

[/ QUOTE ]

What's this?

[/ QUOTE ]

bonus whoring guide (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1060198&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=1&vc=1)

[Jay36489]

[ QUOTE ]
VPIP is fine
preflop raise can go up to 8%
you're way too passive postflop. at the very least your total aggression should be 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying I should be betting/raising twice as much as I am calling? At 1/2 so far my total aggression is 1.74, flop 2.52, turn 1.90, river 1.21. Should all streets be over two? Should the flop be higher then 4th and 5th street?

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying I should be betting/raising twice as much as I am calling? At 1/2 so far my total aggression is 1.74, flop 2.52, turn 1.90, river 1.21. Should all streets be over two? Should the flop be higher then 4th and 5th street?

[/ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth, I'm at 2.81/2.46/2.28. I think the old hands around here are even higher. You might check out btspider's stat post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=965657&fpart= &PHPSESSID=) for a baseline measure of a lot of the common stats.

[phixxx]

My PFR is 9.61, TOT-AF 2.66, and VPIP 19.35. I dropped my VPIP down from 25, would anyone consider a VPIP of 25 too high for 1/2? How are these stats?

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
would anyone consider a VPIP of 25 too high for 1/2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's loose. an astroglide or chris daddy might be able to get away with it due to mad postflop skillz, but for most that's too loose.

[phixxx]

Ahah, well I'm glad I dropped it then.

[Jay36489]

Here are some more of my stats in the format that btspider has in his post.

Hands: 7.943
VPIP: 17.31
PFR: 5.24
VPIP from SB: 31.72
Saw Flop all hands: 23.86
Saw Flop not a blind: 15.59

Steal defence: N/A (far too small a sample size)
Attempt to steal: 7.81 (15 out of 192)

Won $ when saw flop: 25.49
Went to showdown: 30.87
Won $ at showdown: 60.17
Folded to river bet: 38.72

Aggression Factor:
PF:
Flop: 1.44
Turn: 1.3
River: .97
Total: 1.19

When Folds:
no fold: 9.24
PF: 75.92
Flop: 9.58
Turn: 3.54
River: 1.72

Check-raises: 31 times (.62% of possible actions)
6.45% on the flop
48.39% on the turn
45.16% on the river

Win-rate: 4.12 BB/100
Standard Deviation / 100: 12.14

Highest BB/Hand:
AA - 58 times - 84.48% win - 4.90 BB/hand
KK - 70 - 62.86 - 2.30
AKs - 42 - 57.14 - 2.10
JJ - 60 - 58.33 - 2.00
QQ - 52 - 61.54 - 1.64
TT - 62 - 50.00 - 1.15


Position stats (7-10 player hands only):
Position - VPIP/PFR - winrate
Button - 18.57/5.42 - .15 BB/hand
1 off - 19.03/6.78 - .13 BB/hand
2 off - 17.02/6.39 - .07 BB/hand
3 off - 16.85/5.95 - .12 BB/hand
4 off - 15.27/5.82 - .02 BB/hand
5 off - 14.57/6.19 - .04 BB/hand
6 off - 13.19/6.91 - .14 BB/hand
7 off - 10.31/5.67 - .07 BB/hand
BB - 11.88/3.09 - (.27) BB/hand
SB - 32.11/3.49 - (.10) BB/hand

How does all this look? My numbers seem to be similar to his but I'm not sure whqt to look for.

[DMBFan23]

well, sample size issues and all, but just going off a really quick read:

your aggression levels are low. this may be a symptom of a couple things:

*too much calling, particularly with hands that are bad
-from your VP%IP, it doesnt seem like you have a problem calling too much.

*not enough raising, particularly with good draws.
-post a hand where you flop the nut flush draw, or an OESD multiway - are you aggressive with these on the flop?
-might also be hands where you have two overcards, a backdoor flush draw, and a backdoor flush draw, and you are calling instead of raising.
-your turn and river aggressions are anemic. EDIT: not with draws, because I don't know how you play them. just in general.




your preflop raise is also low.


I'd post some hands if you aren't sure how you're playing some typical situations (TPTK, bottom two pair, etc)

[Jay36489]

I may not be betting draws enough. I have a hard time knowing when to bet on the come. Perhaps I back down to post flop aggression too much, but I find my instincts are usually good with that. As far as preflop, I'm not sure.

[Fiddler]

[ QUOTE ]

So you're saying I should be betting/raising twice as much as I am calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please remember that the aggression factor also goes up if you fold hands that you are calling with. Maybe you are raising and betting perfectly fine hands but call too much. It is hard to tell just by looking at the numbers like that.