AJs in mid/late tounament

[Rizen]

Sorry, at work so I don't have the actual hand history handy:

Comments on ALL aspects of the play welcome.

This is a 20+2 Stars NL tournament, blinds are at 300/600 with a 50 ante and 9 players at the table. There are ~175 players left in the tournament with the top 63 getting paid. Getting just into the money on the bubble isn't as important to me as giving myself a reasonable chance at a final table finish. Rizen is dealt A /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif UTG and has ~6500 chips left. Table has been fairly tight often folding around to a standard raise of ~1800.

I (UTG) raise to 1800.
UTG+1 (player to my left, with a slightly deeper stack than mine around 7000 chips who has played pretty tight all game) cold calls for 1800, everyone else folds around leaving just me and the player to my left in with 4950 in the pot.

Flop comes A47 rainbow with the 4 being a club. I bet 2100 into the pot and the player to my left raises me all in after thinking about 10 seconds.

What do I do here?

Not only what do I do here, but what about my pre-flop line of an 1800 raise?

All comments welcome.

-Rizen

[MLG]

raise is fine (but a little dangerous) if you plan on folding if reraised. You should check the flop with the plan of calling if he bets. If he checks behind, then I would bet the turn if a drawish type of card comes. If the turn totally blanks I might check again to try and make him put more in the pot. I don't think you can realistically look to get off this hand in this spot (its gonna suck if he has AK, AQ) but with these few chips, thems the breaks.

[tentwenty]

Your bet on the flop commits you to showdown. You absolutely cannot fold this since you will be the bb next hand and will be blinded off. I would have raised the same preflop then checked the flop to see his action, with the most likely response being a checkraise all in. If he has AK you most likely would have been reraised preflop. You fear AA or AQ. He would likely sloplay AA with this flop and therefore probably has AQ given the fact that he knows you will likely call. With that much money in the pot already you gotta call anyway.

[davidross]

THe big decision on this hand is the pre-flop play. I hate this hand even on the button in NL. It's unlikely you are being called by a worse hand. Once you decide to play it though, how can you do anything but get all your chips in here? If you were cold decked so be it. I have been folding AJ and AQ UTG lately but maybe thats too tight.

[kuro]

AJs UTG ought to be a pretty easy muck pre-flop given your stack size relative to the blinds. Hands that call you are either going to dominate you or be at best coin flips. With 11xbb you don't have to be so desperate.

[Lloyd]

I don't like raising with AJ (suited or otherwise) in EP. You are only going to get called by hands that you are behind or even dominated by. I would probably limp and see if I can see a cheap flop but I'd give some thought to just throwing away the hand.

You made a bet that either says you are weak or very strong. It was, IMO, the right size bet. There aren't any reasonable draws so you don't need to make a pot-sized bet to protect your hand. But again, it could be interpreted as weakness. I absolutely do not like check-calling here as you have no idea where you stand with the hand. I would much rather have him re-raise me all-in then just smooth call.

I'd be shocked if he had two pair or a set (unless he was slow playing AA but that seems unlikely given there are two aces showing). He could have smooth called you pre-flop with AK or AQ. But he could also have several other big pairs including KK, QQ, JJ, TT. With only one overcard (A) on the flop, he could be putting you to a test with something other than AK/AQ since your bet looks a little timid. Therefore, I would call and hope for the best.

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
THe big decision on this hand is the pre-flop play. I hate this hand even on the button in NL. It's unlikely you are being called by a worse hand. Once you decide to play it though, how can you do anything but get all your chips in here? If you were cold decked so be it. I have been folding AJ and AQ UTG lately but maybe thats too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was more or less online with my post-hand thinking. The table was playing tight enough I was really hoping to take the pot down without a contest.

I feel I forgot an important concept from Tournament Poker for Advanced Players though. There is an entire section that is titled (I believe) "Don't turn AQ into 27" that discusses the merits of a sizable raise with hands like AQ/AJ/KQ/TT that are strong hands, but not hands you want to be calling an all-in re-raise or playing for huge pots post flop.

That being said I believe that it may have been a better decision to either min-raise or just limp hoping to see a flop. I also think the 1800 raise committed way too much of my stack into a hand that I really didn't want to see cold called or re-raised here, as I believe the gap concept applies here and I'm going to either take down the pot right there uncontested, or I'm going to be behind going into the flop.

I'm curious why a majority of people favor checking this flop as well if they plan on calling a sizable bet anyways? Given how tight this player is I feel that betting is probably better as I think there is a good chance he lays his hand down here, and I really don't know that I want to give a free card here. My bet size may have been a bit on the high side instead of just pushing here instead of calling a push, but anything less than half the pot just seemed way too weak to me...

-Rizen

[Potowame]

[ QUOTE ]


I'm curious why a majority of people favor checking this flop as well if they plan on calling a sizable bet anyways? Given how tight this player is I feel that betting is probably better as I think there is a good chance he lays his hand down here, and I really don't know that I want to give a free card here. My bet size may have been a bit on the high side instead of just pushing here instead of calling a push, but anything less than half the pot just seemed way too weak to me...



[/ QUOTE ]

The Theory I guess is that a player here may fold JJ-KK here to a large bet , and of course call you with any ace that beats you or ties. So, you are going to lose the same amount of chips on this hand no matter what, you pretty well have to push your stack or call it off. With that being said you are better off trying to get them to bet a hand that you are ahead of, by check calling.

[MLG]

If you're winning then your opponent is drawing very slim. He probably only has 2 outs (maybe 3). I'm willing to risk him drawing for free in order to try and tempt him into betting a hand that im beating. You can be sure in this situation that he isnt gonna be calling you with a hand you beat.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been folding AJ and AQ UTG lately but maybe thats too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. In Harrington's new book, he mentions routinely folding these types of hands UTG, and limping sometimes when they're suited. His recommendations are pretty darn tight up front, but they make sense.

[That guy]

I muck this given the stack size and position. That said, pretending you were in later position; if you are going to raise with AJ you are going to have to continue when you flop your A.

Why not check/min-raise the flop? If he bets small, you min-raise and he calls -- I would move in on the next card.

He could easily have something like 88-JJ here. I would really only fear AQ or a set.

[housenuts]

isn't it sklansky that mentions keeping the pot small with AQ, AJ? i think i read that somewhere. your pf raise basically commits you to the pot, especially if you hit your hand. you are really stuck now.

if you fold pf well you have no more decisions to make and it's easy. if you simply limp you can easily fold to a raise. i don't know if i like that line either. this is a hand i want to avoid because it's too tricky. i'm guessing you're beat by AA or AQ as someone else mentioned. he's all-in PF with AK or KK. at least he should be.

[Jdanz]

i raise to 1500 pre-flop 2.5x is pleanty at this stage, no one is gonna pay 1500 that won't pay 1800 and it makes it easier to fold to a pre-flop re-raise.

Once the flop comes the only play is to check, if you raise all the hands that are beating you call and the majority that you're beating fold.

What you gain from checking is any pocket pair will likely bet here. I think given stack sizes you check raise all in, if you had a little more then maybe check call.

The point is you gain absolutely nothing by betting out here. The only way you get a worse hand to put money in the pot here is by checking, unless you think this guy called preflop with a worse ace, which i think is the least likely possibility.

You're taking this one to showdown, and every hand ahead of you is coming too, your goal is to get the ones you're beating to come for the ride.

-JDanz

[zaxx19]

House why again would someone be necessarily ALLIn WITH ak??? You are overestimating the strength of this hand and the way alot of tighter players perceive it.

[Jason Strasser]

First of all, raise less preflop. I'm sure you've heard this before, but at this stage often a 2.25-2.75xBB raise will have the same effect as a 3xBB raise, so it often makes sense to raise less preflop. In this case it may actually make the hand easier to play postflop.

Secondly. I think betting the flop is some sort of crime. Sure, occasionally you are missing a value bet against a very loose player who has a lesser ace. Plus, you have two more streets to bet for value... But more often than not you will get a player to bluff into you. Everyone and their grandma loves to represent an ace on the board. So I like to check/call the flop and go from there. If it goes check/check, you should also probably check/call the turn and maybe lead the river. You don't have a ton of options here with your type of stack, all you can do is try to exact the most value out of your mediocre hand. If you play the hand strong, you will usually only get action from hands you beat.

Of course, if your opponent is extremely aggressive and capable of bluffing, I'd reccomend leading the flop. Again, that line will get you the most value because there is a possibility of getting action where you are ahead.

-Jason

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm curious why a majority of people favor checking this flop as well if they plan on calling a sizable bet anyways? Given how tight this player is I feel that betting is probably better as I think there is a good chance he lays his hand down here, and I really don't know that I want to give a free card here. My bet size may have been a bit on the high side instead of just pushing here instead of calling a push, but anything less than half the pot just seemed way too weak to me...

-Rizen

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically, given your stack size and the pot size etc etc etc., all the money is going in the middle anyway. If you bet big, he's got an easy fold for any pair. And there is no way he's going to lay down AQ or AK on this flop if he called you pre-flop. If you check, there is a chance he will bet with a pair hand of some sort, at least a higher chance than him calling a big bet on this flop.

You just want to get your stack in against as many hands as possible on this flop, and check-raising (not check calling) is the best way to do it.

-Diplomat

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
i raise to 1500 pre-flop 2.5x is pleanty at this stage, no one is gonna pay 1500 that won't pay 1800 and it makes it easier to fold to a pre-flop re-raise.

Once the flop comes the only play is to check, if you raise all the hands that are beating you call and the majority that you're beating fold.

What you gain from checking is any pocket pair will likely bet here. I think given stack sizes you check raise all in, if you had a little more then maybe check call.

The point is you gain absolutely nothing by betting out here. The only way you get a worse hand to put money in the pot here is by checking, unless you think this guy called preflop with a worse ace, which i think is the least likely possibility.

You're taking this one to showdown, and every hand ahead of you is coming too, your goal is to get the ones you're beating to come for the ride.

-JDanz

[/ QUOTE ]

so if you check and he goes all-in do you call? or do you only check-raise if you can raise enough that he has a chance of folding? i'm not sure so i'm asking. i like the thought processes on this one.

as for being all-in with AK, i would push over the top with AK in this situation. who else advises flat calling the raise PF if you had AK? this play also depends on my view of the initial raiser.

[RikJms]

If you had been playing pretty tight up until that point, he could be playing you as just that, a tight player that will fold to alot of pressure. However in this spot He would easily have A10, or even a lower suited A, and most people automatically reraise with AK or (wrongly)AQ. I would have either put him on an A with a lower kicker, or a set of 7s or 4s, in which he is hoping you call with a big A. However it is a tough call to make, and I don't dislike folding in that spot and waiting for a better spot later.

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]


so if you check and he goes all-in do you call? or do you only check-raise if you can raise enough that he has a chance of folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You check so you can get all-in against more hands than you would by betting. Think about it this way. If you bet and somehow end up all-in, very rarely will it be against a hand like TT. However, if you check and fein weakness, you stand a much better chance of getting all-in against TT. Does that make sense?

[ QUOTE ]
as for being all-in with AK, i would push over the top with AK in this situation. who else advises flat calling the raise PF if you had AK? this play also depends on my view of the initial raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although some do flat call with it, it is less likely. Many players will re-raise with AK and AQ in this spot, which is another reason you should not fear getting all-in in this spot. Recall also that if you check/fold this spot, you will have 4700 chips left and will be required to post your big and small blinds in the next two hands (600 and 300 respectively).

-Diplomat

[Rizen]

I really don't think the results here mattered much, but for those of you that are curious I called, he turned over AK and his hand stood up.

I kept thinking afterwards that I should have been able to avoid getting all my chips in with this hand. With how tight my table was playing I really didn't think much of folding here. I will often fold AJ UTG at an aggressive table, but this table was about as tight/passive as it gets at this point.

That being said I concur that the raise size was too high, and am now convinced that I wrongly bet the flop. Had I checked and he pushed I probably could have laid this hand down to a tight/passive player like the guy UTG+1, but for the amount in the pot I felt like I had to call and was praying to see something like JJ/TT/ATs or even another AJ.

Thanks for all the great feedback. It never even crossed my mind to check this flop but with the reasoning given here I do think it was criminal to bet here.

-Rizen