Rules Question, 3 card hand not discovered until after action.

[JoshuaD]

The game's NL Hold'em.

a few limpers, a raise, a re-raise, and then an all-in.

Limpers fold, the original raiser folds. the re-raiser is contemplating a call.

After a minute of thinking, he looks at his opponents hand, and notices that there are three cards total. One had clearly stuck to the back of the other card, and it didn't seem like the all-in was aware of it, or was trying to cheat.

I called it a misdeal, and returned everyones money. There had been no showdown yet, and if we let the hand play, we would be offering an incentive to other players to keep quiet when they got 3 cards.

Do you agree with that?

Also, if there had a been a call and then a showdown, how would you rule when the 3rd card was discovered? If the person with the 3-card hand won? If the other person won?

[Eric H]

If two or more players have acted upon their hands, the deal must played to its conclusion. Otherwise, it would be a misdeal.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
If two or more players have acted upon their hands, the deal must played to its conclusion. Otherwise, it would be a misdeal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which deal? Which cards are his?

Doesn't that promote cheating?

"hrm, i've got three cards. If I just keep my mouth shut I can play all three."

[warewulf]

You could have him put his cards on the table and not tell him why. Then have him write down what two cards he has assuming he doesn't know about the third card.

btw, what kind of cards were they that stuck together? No more chewing gum at the table! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
You could have him put his cards on the table and not tell him why. Then have him write down what two cards he has assuming he doesn't know about the third card.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I made the ruling, I didn't think he knew about the third card.

However, if I was to use your rule, then any player dealt 3 cards simply looks at all three, squares two of them, and then when asked which cards were his, states the best two.

Giving a player dealt 3 cards anyway to take advantage of the rule is not something I want to do.

It seems to me that it's the players responsibility to make sure his hand is valid, and if there's a problem, it's his fault. The rules at cardplayer (http://www.cardplayer.com/rules-of-poker/general-rules.php?PHPSESSID=b68f8c4be6377875f9d0193d45698b ce) usually hold the player responsible for irregularaties not quickly discovered.


[ QUOTE ]
btw, what kind of cards were they that stuck together? No more chewing gum at the table! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Plastic cards tend to stick after a while. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Lottery Larry]

Yes, but the 3-card hand is automatically a dead hand

[Lottery Larry]

"Plastic cards tend to stick after a while"

What cards are you using? Sound like Royals

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but the 3-card hand is automatically a dead hand

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't bother trying to reconstruct the pot preflop? I can see if things have escelated, but it was pretty easy at this point.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
"Plastic cards tend to stick after a while"

What cards are you using? Sound like Royals

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what brand they are. Just some cheap holdovers until the store gets something better in.

[Lottery Larry]

Go online, look for Rocchester Chess Club, order a setup of Copaqs at $15. You'll be happy you did.

Or splurge on the Kems, you'll be happy with those as well.

[Lottery Larry]

No, because of the folders who limped at first- doesn't seem fair to them. If you don't have a house rule that gives everyone their money back -and the reraiser isn't going to be happy to waste their hand- that will teach people to check their hand carefully.

Tough lesson, but that's how you learn

[Johnny5]

/images/graemlins/ooo.gif Royals are now the best cards on the market - didn't you hear!?!

J5

[PinataUT]

You sound like someone who has never handled KEMs!
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Big Country]

[ QUOTE ]
You sound like someone who has never handled KEMs!
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the 11th response (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1361904&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=21&fpart=1) of that thread to get Johnny5's joke.

[warewulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You sound like someone who has never handled KEMs!
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the 11th response (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1361904&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=21&fpart=1) of that thread to get Johnny5's joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I kept up with that thread. Some people just don't get it! HELLO!!

Back to the 3 card thing, I agree that his had should be dead. Players should be responsible for looking at their cards. I understand that in this case the cards may have gotten stuck, but I think you have to assume that isn't going to happen often. If someone can't spot that they have 3 hands before the flop, they deserve to have their hand dead.

[Johnny5]

But I handled 'em once in a store...or did I?

Stop attacking me!

J5 /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Eric H]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If two or more players have acted upon their hands, the deal must played to its conclusion. Otherwise, it would be a misdeal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which deal? Which cards are his?

Doesn't that promote cheating?

"hrm, i've got three cards. If I just keep my mouth shut I can play all three."

[/ QUOTE ]

The player with too many cards would have his hand declared dead.

[Mojo Tooth]

The right thing to do is kill the hand with three cards. I'm having trouble picturing a scenario where someone playing holdem, who has actually handled and checked his hole cards, wouldn't notice something wrong with them like having an extra card.

That being said, you did an acceptable thing IMO, given that this is just a one-off sort of mistake. As long as you make it clear that from now on, extra cards that aren't noticed before two people have acted will kill that player's hand.

There's really no good excuse to be unaware of an extra card. Someone wasn't paying close attention.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
You sound like someone who has never handled KEMs!
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, I had a nice deck of Kem's last summer, but we ruined them.

We're still waiting for the store to get more.