Harrington on SNGs

[byronkincaid]

Just received my copy of Harrington on Hold'em. He gives a quick overview of SNGs. He talks about stealing when you reach the 4th or 5th level and says

"...if the hand is checked to you, go for it. Just move in for the minimum raise with any two reasonable cards"

I almost never minimum raise.

My initial thoughts are that he does say to observe the other players so you should have an idea of who's likely to call or not and also I do find myself folding a lot to mini raises because I think they may have a monster but if someone starts doing it a lot then I'm going to start calling. Also the higher the blinds the more likely they are to work.

My usual steal raise is 3 times BB. I think I have seen Fossilman say his usual steal is 2.75 times BB (referring to double shootouts at the time I think). Should the mini raise become part of my play and if so when?

[Phill S]

when the BB is significant (400 or more) i miniraise when i dont go all in.

before that, with the BB at 100 or more, i raise 2.5 times the BB.

i feel that at these blind levels, raising the standard 3* stretches your chips more than they need to. 150 is still 150, and 400 is still 400. most people dont notice thats its X*BB.

Phill

[kalooki45]

Harrington lives in a different world.
He plays games where a mini-raise is 100K and where a mini-raise means a monster hand..LOL
In MY little games (pond scum level) nobody bats an eye unless it's 3-4xBB, and at SOME tables it's all-in or get called...and even then you may get called by J6o lol
I adjust everything I do to the personality of the table..notice each table has one?
I think it's interesting--a different little universe with different rules in every game /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Phill S]

its true your comparing apples and oranges, but they are both fruit.

'action' dan is one of the best tourney players on the planet. to simply dismiss what he writes as he plays a higher limit is to say that TPFAP is a pointless read.

its all about adapting what you learn, and i think that learning more than you need is preferable to learning less than you can.

however your spot on when you say that play should adapt to the table's personality.

Phill

[Klak]

i use the min raise to steal all the time and it works really well. if they call the raise, jut move in on them on the flop unless they bet out. you better have position when trying this play.

[rickr]

Once blinds get to 100/200 I'll even drop down to 2x blind. If you are in late position, you can minraise with almost any hand. Look at it this way. Blinds are 100/200, and I raise it from the button to 400. Everage chipstacks at this point are what, 1200. Small blind has to put 300 more to protect 100 while having to worry about what the BB will do. He will lay down even fairly decent hands. BB has to put in 200 more to protect. That's a sizeable portion of there stack. If he comes hard over the top, if you have the hand bust him, if not fold. If he calls, checks on the river, fire a shot, most times it will take it down. If he fires a shot and the flop hit you, come back over the top. Your putting 400 at risk to win 300 chips right off the bat. So you only need this to work 2 out of 3 to be +EV. I've had people say, "Man if I could get a decent hand I'd bust you, cause I know your raising with crap". They "know" I'm raising with crap, but they still can't do much about it without taking a signifigant risk that they were wrong about my crap.

Later,
Rick

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Just received my copy of Harrington on Hold'em. He gives a quick overview of SNGs. He talks about stealing when you reach the 4th or 5th level and says

"...if the hand is checked to you, go for it. Just move in for the minimum raise with any two reasonable cards"


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, "4th or 5th level" is meaningless here. What is important is the stack/blind ratio. So, what is it?

eastbay

[byronkincaid]

It's a quick overview not talking about a particular hand. Thats why I was surprised to see him recomend it.

edit to say its just 2 pages not remotely as in depth as Aleos guide for example.

[citanul]

Where are these sngs spread, that players have hundreds of thousands of chips, with which to make miniraises to 100k?

citanul

[kalooki45]

a bit of hyperbole in the interest of making a point..LOL

I do read the books, and intend to read many more!
I'm a new player, playing at micro-limits, and I do notice a difference in the style of play. I've also noticed that people adjust to you--if they know you'll bet at a checked flop, they start checking the nuts..if they know you'll bet at the river, they'll wait for ya there...LOL heck, even I do that. If you make regular blind raises, they'll start reraising, etc. For every offense, there's a defense.
The other thing I notice is that it's all well and good to wait for a biggie at limit, but it's just not poss at NL--you'll get blinded out before you get that one good hand.
Where my game is the weakest is in bluffs and steals--I would love to hear more about the numbers end of it--what's considered a positive risk vs. a bone-headed move /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Any and all comments welcome!

[DrPhysic]

The minraise can be a useful tool as I see it, in fundamentally three circumstances.

One: When the stack/blind ratio is so low that the only bet short of all-in is a minraise.

Two: When blinds are big enough that a late position minraise steal represents enough chips to have an intimidation factor, see Klak and rickr’s posts.

Three: When playing with better players, especially ones known to be of the “I Never Minraise” school, it is useful in leaving the opposition wondering whether you are harboring a monster, or simply have no clue how to play poker. Leading the opposition to either overestimate or underestimate your play is consistent with the fundamental theorem.

Doc /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Phill S]

i love the fact that a couple of months back doc you made a thread where you basicly said youd never miniraise.

just goes to show how evolving the strategies used in SnGs are, due to the newness of the game.

Phill
ps, newness, come up with a better word after just waking up, i dare ya... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AleoMagus]

Vicissitude?

But I didn't just wake up. Newness is a word, isn't it?

Regards
Brad S

[DrPhysic]

Phill,

At that time I was minraising too much. Too easy to hit the raise button. I still do sometimes.

What I said was that I would try not to minraise for a full week. I actually completed the week with two as I remember. I also got considerable static in the nature of: "I have never minraised in my life" from some better players.

One of the things I was doing at that time, besides breaking a bad habit, was thinking about where this play was useful. Especially since the consensus thought is "NEVER." One of the thoughts was along the line of "do the opposite of what the other guy is doing." He's tight, go loose, etc. In this case, in a game with other 2+2ers it can be used to create a useful table image. Not a positive one, rather a weak negative one. About which I could care less from an ego standpoint, if it gives me a little edge in getting the chips.

Note that the same line of thought does not work in a typical $10 or $20 PP game. It would only apply in game with pretty good players like a 2+2 tourny.

Doc

ps: evolution?

[ChrisV]

I'll move in on you there from the BB with any ace, good kings, any pair. If you minraise a lot I'll do it with more hands. Your laydowns are going to be badly wrong more often than they're right. Your steals are also less successful (for example I'd fold 22 to an allin, reraise to a minraise).

EDIT: Well OK, depending on the situation I might well not fold 22 to an allin. But make the stacks a bit deeper and the above holds true.

[ChrisV]

(1) Then it's obvious to any thinking player why you're minraising and not going allin.

(2) For a minraise to have an intimidation factor, there has to be a strong implication that you're calling if they reraise allin. This suggests you should have gone allin in the first place.

(3) It's true I can't tell whether you have AA or a poor hand. Happily you get dealt poor hands a lot more than AA, so I'll just assume you have that.

[Gramps]

I just got my copy yesterday and read this page on SNG strategy. Seems like a fundamental flaw in Harrington/Robertie's reasoning - lots of online players once they realize what you're doing (mini-raising on multiple occasions, so obviously with more than just your premium hands) will come over the top of you with less than what they'd call your push with. You just don't get reliable information when someone comes over the top of a frequent mini-raiser.

Unless the stacks are deep, I'm not going to keep sticking an extra 2 BB "carrot" out there for someone to come over the top of me to pick up 3.5 BB for free (and still have a chance to outdraw if I call them). They really should have done an in-depth analysis on the factors that make this play work/not work like they did in the other parts of the book (IM humble O).

Of course...hopefully more online players will be sticking out more "carrots for harvest" after reading this part of the book....

[sofere]

In my very limited experience, minraises only work well with high blind/stack ratio(as everyone said) and with a strong read of the table. Generally, I'll steal consistantly with 3xbb. After a while, if no body is coming back at me I'll test out minraise when I have (a) a decent hand, (b) the blinds just went up. If it works, it works, otherwise I go back to 3xbb and maybe try out minraise later.

[ QUOTE ]
Unless the stacks are deep, I'm not going to keep sticking an extra 2 BB "carrot" out there for someone to come over the top of me to pick up 3.5 BB for free (and still have a chance to outdraw if I call them). They really should have done an in-depth analysis on the factors that make this play work/not work like they did in the other parts of the book (IM humble O).

[/ QUOTE ]
The beauty of stealing with minraise is that if it is easy to let go of, but when you do have a monster it should more than make up for the steals you had to fold.