Yet another rules question

[TheEleven]

Hi - long time lurker, first time poster...

I actually had 2 rules questions from a tourney I hosted yesterday. We were playing NL holdem.

First situation - I'm doing steady dealing at my table and have been for about 2 hours. On this hand, I'm UTG and fold. The guy next to me goes all-in. He doesn't have his hand protected (they were out near his chips at the betting line). As everyone folds around, I accidently muck his hand. I try to identify the ones that are his and pull them out, but he looks and says those weren't his. We're at a loss, then someone says, "well if everyone folds, it won't matter." The button wants to call and mutters something to that effect, but under seeming duress he folds and the crisis was averted. What do you think I should have done? I know a mucked hand is dead, but didn't know what to do with his all-in stack. The button was a buddy and I think he just did me a favor...

2nd situation - it's down to heads up. Player A has about 1/3 of the chips, Player 2 B has 2/3. The flop comes out and A fires a decent size bet. B is hesistant, trying to think what to do, and starts mumbling under his breath ("hmm should I call, hmm, hmm, should I let you have it"). Finally he says something like, "Oh what the hell" and starts dropping chips up at the bet line. As he's dropping the chips, he says "Or maybe I'll put you all-in". Player A immediately says "Okay" and starts pushing his stack in (but doesn't show his cards). At that, Player B, says, "Oh maybe not" and pulls back his hand with the chips he hasn't dropped yet. I'm not sure exactly how many chips he had already put onto the table, but I don't think it was even enough to match A's original bet. So we ruled it just a call and Player A eventually won the hand but didn't double up. I think this was the right ruling, but part of me was thinking that his verbal "all-in" should've been binding. The only problem was that he said it Jeopardy style - in the form of a question. On the other hand, he said it while he was posting up chips... Thoughts?

btw, I don't think he was shooting an angle, honestly - he's just a wishy washy player and doesn't understand poker etiquette and rules.

Thanks!

[PokerGoblin]

welcome to the forums. I hope you find them useful.

first off it sounds like there's beer involved, which isn't a bad thing but it can raise tempers if it's not a friendly game...

Situation A) You got lucky your friend (the button) mucked, however you need to be more careful. He may have had a monster and you could really cause some turmoil there. That aside, the right thing to do in a friendly game is to replay the hand with the blinds in the same places. Give everyone their chips back. I don't know if that's the official solution, but it's generally the best thing to do in a friendly game.

For situation B) I assume you're the dealer (and the host?) you need to be more assertive as to what defines a bet/call... generally verbal committments are binding, if he's splashing the pot you need to put a stop to it unless you are sure of his intentions. As the dealer/host they look to you for leadership, what you say goes. If you like, make a rule that a call/bet/raise is not complete until all chips are on the felt. Discrepancies are not good in a friendly game.

I regularly host a home game with a lot of regulars (including a couple 2+2ers) and we rarely have problems, we've all become good friends but there is still real money we're throwing around so there has to be some sanity in there somewhere, even though ultimately we're all just there to have fun.

Hope that helps.

PG

[flatline]

As far as (A), one solution you can use if, and only if, its a group of people that you completely trust not to cheat. Have the first player tell someone not involved in the hand what his cards were. Then have that person find the cards. For obvious reasons this doesn't work if its not a game among friends, so in many cases it should just be a misdeal, I think.

[TheEleven]

Thanks. I hear you on the assertion part. The funny thing is that I'm known to be a real stickler for proper betting, no string raising, etc. etc... Unfortunately, on this hand I wasn't dealing because I was trying buy Red Sox tickets online (the details came from the dealer and was corroborated by player A). When I came back, everyone already decided to just make it a call (B had even offered to let the all-in stand). So I just let it slide. Still, if I were there, I think I would've made the all-in stand, so that's why I asked here...

On the mucking question, the thing that aggravated me was that this guy (btw, same guy who had the betting problem) asked me on the 2nd hand of the game why I put a chip on my cards. And I said "So that they don't accidently get folded. You should protect your hand." He just kind of shrugged it off. He hosts a lot of games himself, but mostly the kitchen/boys night type of stuff. So when we talk cards, he always tells me I'm so uptight, and hey it's not the WSOP or anything. Etc, etc. And after I accidently mucked his hand, I told him again, "Please protect your hand since you're sitting right next to me". Again I just got a shrug.

I've hosted dozens of games before and never had any problems (he's not a regular). That's what makes it so aggravating...

Anyway thanks again...

[Lottery Larry]

#1- sucks for him, his hand is dead and so is his money. I had that happen to me in a casino tournament- got knocked out two from the money as a result of the dealer taking my cards after I raised and reraised.
Unless you can easily pull out his hand from the muck, having him call out the hand isn't kosher.

#2- I would rule that Player B had to put all of the chips in his hand in as a bet, bringing it up to the minimum bet required. If it was more than half of a raise, he'd have to meet the minimum raise amount. The verbal comment
ambiguous enough to be non-binding (if I thought it was an angle-shoot by B, then I might warn him, but nothing else)

Player A should make sure that Player B is finished with his action before reacting.

[TheEleven]

Thanks for the feedback. I saw #1 happen the same way once when I was in a satellite at Foxwoods this fall. Same result. Guy was not happy.

I'll have to be more diligent on both counts in the future.

[Lottery Larry]

Don't be overly viligent unless you have to. If your home game is friendly enough, people will often come to a fair agreement that doesn't require you to impose the will of your rules.
That usually goes over much better, even if it's technically incorrect.