PDA

View Full Version : "snapping off" limpers from the blinds


Big Limpin'
12-12-2004, 09:04 PM
Hey all, first time, long time.
Ive been lurking for about a year, almost solely in this SnG forum, and play nothing but. I consider myself pretty decent, so take the "newb" post-count with a grain of salt.

I'd like to throw out a situational play for discussion/comments/disagreements, etc. Im sure it has been previously hashed over, but not recently that i am aware of. I also dont claim to have invented this myself or anything, just that its been of great use to me since implemented in my toolbox.

The situation: Those SnGs that for whatever reason, have few KO's early, and no dominant chipleader. The blinds have increased to significant levels (i.e. scooping 2 or 3 limps has enough value to justify the risk of running into a limp/re-raiser)

You are in the SB/BB. Your actual card holdings are not of great importance. Several limpers. P/F action comes around to you unraised. Depending on your stack, you either push, or raise it up big (5BB+). You KNOW they are limping cause their hand is "pretty good, not great". Well, your fairly sure anyways. Remember, THEY want to steal pots too. Its so likely that their plan is to hit a nice flop for cheap, THEN they have confidence in their hand. They are iffy right now.

How often do you take this pot uncontested... my guess is over 75%. Of the remainder, when someone does call you, you still have a gamblers chance of outflopping.

It seems to me that this play is not part of most ABC player's toolbox, but given the frequency in which SnG's come down to a blind steal here and there as the bubble approaches.....i feel it is applicable, and under-discussed.

I want to call this "snapping em off". I think i remeber it being refered to as that. If i have the vernacular wrong, pls enlighten me.

Other random considerations:

-This is useless when a limper has little more in his stack...he will call. You dont want calls. Likewise, you need a stack yourself.

-Far too risky to attempt with blinds below, say, 100-200 (?) YOu are trying for a 1-hit scoop that is WORTH THE RISK

-Your card holdings....You hope it wont matter...but id prefer to do this with mid-suited connectors...they fight best with the hands that will call you (premium). Refence a Strassa post re: bubble bully, from back in the summer

-Not to be abused (overused). I doubt i identify a good situation more than once every couple tourneys.


That all for now, hope my first post stirs up some interesting dicsussion, and and "knowledge entropy" i good.

THeres more i want to write on the subject, but this post has gotten mighty long, and frankly, i am interested to see which of the "A-list" posters brings up certain arguements. I have some hunches, wink /images/graemlins/wink.gif

ChrisV
12-12-2004, 10:20 PM
"Snapping off" usually refers to calling somebody's (presumed) bluff. In the context of SNGs it's used to refer to calling somebody's preflop steal raise.

kalooki45
12-12-2004, 10:25 PM
I use this little tactic myself in SNGs, and find it's pretty effective, not to mention MUCH more lucrative than simply stealing a couple of blinds.
Love a table full of limpers..I figure most are calling trash (as is usual at my level)--and the few who aren't are probably on what I think of as "half hands" (big card crap kicker).
The ones most dangerous are the small PPs..they often limp in, but will defend their wired 3s to the death! As you say--it's best not to overdo it...
But it's my revenge against the all-in set..I hate those guys..lol...risking their whole stack to pick up 45 in chips?? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Big Limpin'
12-12-2004, 11:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
"Snapping off" usually refers to calling somebody's (presumed) bluff. In the context of SNGs it's used to refer to calling somebody's preflop steal raise.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ahhh. I see. Is there a different, yet equally catchy name to be used instead?

Big Limpin'
12-12-2004, 11:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I use this little tactic myself in SNGs, and find it's pretty effective, not to mention MUCH more lucrative than simply stealing a couple of blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally. Sucessful blind steals net only 1.5 big blinds. Here we get integer amounts..2,3, maybe 4BB. Also, the traditional blind steal is done blind...you are betting into unknown strength, whereas here we are acting AFTER the prey has shown the strength (or lack thereof) of their holding

[ QUOTE ]
The ones most dangerous are the small PPs..they often limp in, but will defend their wired 3s to the death! As you say--it's best not to overdo it...


[/ QUOTE ]

True, but, its nothing to be afraid of, our crappy mid-connectors are still coinflipping...this "unsucessful" situation is still posEV, due to the pot-sweetener limps in there.

ChrisV
12-12-2004, 11:23 PM
Don't see why not. Poker can never have too much jargon. What we need is something completely incomprehensible to newbies. How about one of these?

Threading the fishing line
Riding the elephant
Sweeping the floor
Juicing the orange

Gar Pike
12-12-2004, 11:46 PM
How 'bout 'Spanking the Monkeys' (or is that already taken...?) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

AA suited
12-13-2004, 12:54 AM
how about "brown trout taking action"

kalooki45
12-13-2004, 07:06 AM
I think of it as the Hoover Maneuver /images/graemlins/cool.gif
(because you're vacuuming up all that trash on the table) lmao
about poker jargon: no kidding!
Pocket Rockets, Cowboys, Motown, Snowmen, Ladies,...when I heard there was a hand called "Montana Banana" I cried....enough already!

Huhmare
12-13-2004, 07:17 AM
i find myself frequently making that kind of plays with KK AA.. and i almost always get paid off.. I play 10+1 20+2 tho

Big Limpin'
12-13-2004, 04:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think of it as the Hoover Maneuver /images/graemlins/cool.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

We have a winner !

Big Limpin'
12-13-2004, 04:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i find myself frequently making that kind of plays with KK AA.. and i almost always get paid off.. I play 10+1 20+2 tho

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure i understand. You mean you are jamming the pot from the blinds with your best hands? I would be inclined to just toss in a min-raise...you want them to have the opportunity to make a TPGK thats second best.

If i understand you correctly, you're saying you usually get called in this situation? Thats contradictory to my whole premise /images/graemlins/blush.gif

What site do you play at? I find (at pokerroom) that power-bets are respected quite well at 10+1 to 30+3 levels.

In early levels though, agreed, i like to just ovebet with monster hands and hope for a underpair call. But i meant for this post to be more in the 5-7 players left, 100-200+ blinds situations.

unfrgvn
12-13-2004, 04:55 PM
I know one poster(Aleo?) that advocated pushing anytime you had 2 or 3 limpers and you were in the SB or BB, regardless of the cards, provided the blinds + limps are worth stealing. I probably haven't used this tactic as often as I should, but I think it has worked every time I've tried it. I do agree you have to be careful that no one is short stacked enough to give a "what the hell" call.

Snapping off is what I try to do to someone when I see them employ this trick and I have Aces.
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

ddubois
12-13-2004, 05:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Ahhh. I see. Is there a different, yet equally catchy name to be used instead?

[/ QUOTE ]
"Raising limpers"

YourFoxyGrandma
12-13-2004, 05:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would be inclined to just toss in a min-raise...you want them to have the opportunity to make a TPGK thats second best.

[/ QUOTE ]

High pocket pairs lose value as the pot gets more multiway. The more limpers to you, the more you should raise with them.

Guy McSucker
12-13-2004, 05:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]

High pocket pairs lose value as the pot gets more multiway


[/ QUOTE ]

No they don't.

The chance of the hand holding up drops, for sure. But the same is true of any hand: the more players you have to beat, the tougher it is to win the pot.

Nevertheless, in chip EV terms, a big pair gains EV the more limpers come in.

Guy.

tigerite
12-13-2004, 05:51 PM
Whilst this is true, in a tournament you do not want to run the risk of going broke by allowing too many people to see the flop, so it is better to forego some of this chip EV to improve your chances of further +EV opportunities later. In a ring game, the more people see the flop when you have a pair the better, within reason.

Big Limpin'
12-13-2004, 05:55 PM
In SnGs, im not playing for 3rd. If i can take AA into a multiway pot, raised p/f, im a happy man. Lets say its 3-way and 6.5 BB in the pot. Irregardless of flop, im pushing first action.