When Will I Learn? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

sthief09

12-12-2004, 10:22 AM

I fold when I should call and I call when I should fold... someone make me feel stupid so I don't do it again

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (7.70 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

bisonbison

12-12-2004, 10:24 AM

This looks fine. Don't be results-oriented. You don't think 10% of the time he's gonna be a knucklehead?

David BB

12-12-2004, 10:37 AM

This hand pretty much plays itself. Nothing you could or should do differently imo.

steamboatin

12-12-2004, 11:12 AM

In a B&M you would be amazed how many times they will turn over a four or smaller pocket pair. A crying call here wins often enough to pay for itself.

sthief09

12-12-2004, 11:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This looks fine. Don't be results-oriented. You don't think 10% of the time he's gonna be a knucklehead?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't. you don't see that many super-slowplays, so I got really curious. I'm waiting for Tosh to show up. He's good at these types of situations.

question for all: if he check-raises the turn, I can fold, right?

bisonbison

12-12-2004, 11:41 AM

I don't.

You gotta give me some kind of read for me to fold here. Any kind of read.

you don't see that many super-slowplays, so I got really curious.

You're closing the action on the river, the other player folds, it's a blank, you've been betting the whole way, but there are no broadways on the board. Maybe 88 or A5 decided he was good andthat you wouldn't 3-bet cause of the paired board.

I'm waiting for Tosh to show up. He's good at these types of situations.

No one knows this, but Tosh is actually the worst player in the world. Listen to him at your own peril.

if he check-raises the turn, I can fold, right?

Do you have a read?

Mikey

12-12-2004, 12:07 PM

"You don't think 10% of the time he's gonna be a knucklehead?"

I don't understand this.......

sthief09

12-12-2004, 12:11 PM

there's about 9 BB in the pot when it's up to me. it costs me 1 BB to call, so I'm being offered 9 bets for 1. that's 9-1, or 1 in 10, or 10%

StellarWind

12-12-2004, 12:50 PM

There is no other way to play this hand. You cannot fold KK just because one unknown player raises.

If you never folded a made hand on the river for one bet it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Mike Gallo

12-12-2004, 12:54 PM

sthief09,

I would have played it the same way.

Tosh

12-12-2004, 01:07 PM

I would actually call here too. I think there is enough scope for an unknown to be on some random play.

steamboatin

12-12-2004, 01:07 PM

A lot of low limit players and good players, for entirely diffeent reasons will raise with two pair in this situation. They don't automatically have a set or pocket aces. Because of the size of the pot, you only have to win one time out of ten to break even and two times out of ten to be very profitable. Depending on the stakes and the other players in the game, a fold is too expensive. It costs you the entire pot and a call only costs you one more bet.

Tosh

12-12-2004, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]

No one knows this, but Tosh is actually the worst player in the world. Listen to him at your own peril.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true but I'm still beating you for hands played this month.

bisonbison

12-12-2004, 01:11 PM

That may be true but I'm still beating you for hands played this month.

On Friday I realized that I was ready to 8-table 3/6. I've played 6k hands in the last 48 hours, up to 9980. You are doomed.

And anyhow, I thought that insulting you would be funnier than crying to myself about how my advice isn't good enough for Josh.

Trix

12-12-2004, 01:12 PM

I dont fold anywhere either.

Tosh

12-12-2004, 01:15 PM

Not cool! Sounds like my fiendish plan to start 12 tabling 6 max from Tuesday is essential.

sthief09

12-12-2004, 01:15 PM

I know you're joking, but it's not that your advice isn't good enough. it's just that Tosh is really good at these decisions, and I don't know how good you are

sthief09

12-12-2004, 01:16 PM

1140 hands/hr /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

that's like 35 hours at a casino

bisonbison

12-12-2004, 01:19 PM

oh, I understand. I'm big on subtly bumping my own threads until the people I want to respond have told me what's what.

Also, I am of the Bob T. school of paying off in order to not tilt.

sthief09

12-12-2004, 01:21 PM

I give myself a lot of s[/i]hit for not folding enough. apparently I shouldn't be folding in some spots where I think a fold is in order. how's this?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

River: (6.20 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, Button raises, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.20 BB
Main Pot: 8.20 BB, won by Button.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to Button.

StellarWind

12-12-2004, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you're joking, but it's not that your advice isn't good enough. it's just that Tosh is really good at these decisions, and I don't know how good you are

[/ QUOTE ]
Translation: "It's not that I don't trust you ... actually yes it is /images/graemlins/grin.gif."

sthief09

12-12-2004, 01:24 PM

can I fold if he pulls that on the turn? I'm pretty sure I would've

bisonbison

12-12-2004, 01:28 PM

Translation: "It's not that I don't trust you ... actually yes it is ."

It's fine when I say I suck, I don't need to hear it from you schmos.

Also, Stellar, this is my perfect opportunity to corner you: who are you?

CDC and I were talking about this when we played over thanksgiving. You're the long-term poster who never shares any personal info. Where do you live? Have you played with anyone here? How old are you? Do you weigh in the vicinity of 400 lbs?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Hoi Polloi

12-12-2004, 01:43 PM

I would definitely call. KJ, A5, AT may beat you. His check on the turn suggests he's on a draw or just hanging around with Ax or K5 or something like that and that he doesn't have KT or KQ, etc. If he's a good player he probably has you beat or he's making a play on you. I would show him down unless I have very good reasons to think this guy has me beat.

The Dude

12-12-2004, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
can I fold if he pulls that on the turn? I'm pretty sure I would've

[/ QUOTE ]
No. A turn checkraise is MUCH less likely to mean the goods than a river checkraise. Against unsophisticated opponents a river checkraise ALWAYS means he wants you to call.

Trix

12-12-2004, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
how's this?

[/ QUOTE ]

weak-tight ?

You are making it very easy for them to outplay you.

sthief09

12-12-2004, 02:47 PM

he didn't bet the turn, yet he has the courage to raise the river with less than AQ? the only hand I could see him having that I beat is AJ, and for some reason I doubt he's raising the turn with AJ.
I'd like some more responses so we can make it unanimous taht I'm an idiot and have no clue what's going on...

me454555

12-12-2004, 03:03 PM

Why are you worried so much calling an extra bet on the river when you have a decent hand? I think both these hands are easy river calls b/c the pot is big and you're unlikely to get reraised. You have a decent chance of winning the pot in both hands so calls are fine.

In both hands, you've gotta play the rive exactly like you did. Checking in fear of a monster in both situations is unacceptalbe. Maybe this is a leak in my game but I almost never fold the river for 1 bet unless I'm holding an extremely weak hand like a missed draw. Ed has jammed that mantra into my brain and so far so good.

cnfuzzd

12-12-2004, 03:48 PM

its easy. Welcome to the world of 400 hands an hour

peace

john nickle

SomethingClever

12-12-2004, 04:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he didn't bet the turn, yet he has the courage to raise the river with less than AQ? the only hand I could see him having that I beat is AJ, and for some reason I doubt he's raising the turn with AJ.
I'd like some more responses so we can make it unanimous taht I'm an idiot and have no clue what's going on...

[/ QUOTE ]

My read would be that he had Ax, and he put you on a K or a bluff when you bet the flop.

I think this is how a typical player thinks.

I'd call... I think you'll see a worse A often enough.