Way ahead or way behind 3 opponents!?

[StellarWind]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 is exactly like a calling station except he bets quite a bit when it is checked to him postflop. CO is LAG preflop but tightens up quite a bit postflop. SB seems very unusual. Preflop he is 29%/0% over 96 hands. His flop play is fairly aggressive and his turn play is extremely aggressive.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, ...

[bdk3clash]

What's up with the call preflop?

I think calling down here is fine.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
What's up with the call preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't always raise ATs from the early seats.

[JimRivett]

I would be inclined to raise pre flop, I'm pretty sure it would have made the rest of the hand easier to play.

Again, I would be inclined to raise the flop because you probably have the best hand and you want to charge any weaker aces and straight draws.

Jim

[sfer]

This is a good board for that line, I like it.

Also, this is a pretty routine preflop raise.

Sup bro?

[sfer]

Worse aces are basically drawing dead.

[chesspain]

I would probably raise PF...after that, calling down is fine.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Worse aces are basically drawing dead.

[/ QUOTE ]
14 outs to chop although my backdoors might get them on the river.

[StellarWind]

MP2 called the turn behind me.

River: 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB checks, I bet, MP2 calls, SB folds.

MP2 has 88 and MHIG.

Thanks for the comments.

[Redeye]

Unfortunately I've already seen the results, but I swear I was thinking this before I saw them. We've got a bunch of people who limped into this pot, isn't it highly likely that someone has a small ace here and will still call down if we raise? I just thought maybe putting in a raise somewhere, maybe the turn, would be profitable. Any thoughts?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately I've already seen the results, but I swear I was thinking this before I saw them. We've got a bunch of people who limped into this pot, isn't it highly likely that someone has a small ace here and will still call down if we raise? I just thought maybe putting in a raise somewhere, maybe the turn, would be profitable. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you are saying about the results. It appears that my line is the best one against their actual hands. SB was probably completely bluffing and MP2 was drawing to two outs with a very weak showdown hand. It's likely that a raise on the flop or turn forces them both out immediately which would be costly.

Raising is terrible if I'm up against a jack. If someone has a worse ace the raise may gain or lose. It depends on whether the third player calls down too, whether the third player would have called down without the raise, and whether the 14-out chop draw hits. The way you actually lose money is when the third player is forced out by the raise and you wind up chopping.

Raising a gutshot when I am ahead is good on the flop because I want him to call two or fold. It's still useful on the turn because SB has already put a bet in and MP2 will pay two even though he shouldn't even pay one.

Overall it seems like the raise is -EV. The hurt from raising a jack is much bigger than the possible benefit from raising when I am ahead. It does appear that the turn is the best time if you want to raise because you can abort if a chop card turns.

[Redeye]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you are saying about the results. It appears that my line is the best one against their actual hands. SB was probably completely bluffing and MP2 was drawing to two outs with a very weak showdown hand. It's likely that a raise on the flop or turn forces them both out immediately which would be costly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I realized a while after I posted that raising wouldn't be a good idea because of the reasons you stated. Let me ask you this though, on the river, if SB still bet into you, and no chop card falls, do you still call here or would you raise and fold to a 3-bet?

I know if MP2 folds when you raise you win the same and if SB has a jack you lose 1 extra BB. But if MP2 were on some type of gutshot draw, he might've folded anyways and you could've gotten an extra BB from SB when he has a smaller ace. Is this just bad thinking here?

[sexypanda]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately I've already seen the results, but I swear I was thinking this before I saw them. We've got a bunch of people who limped into this pot, isn't it highly likely that someone has a small ace here and will still call down if we raise? I just thought maybe putting in a raise somewhere, maybe the turn, would be profitable. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you are saying about the results. It appears that my line is the best one against their actual hands. SB was probably completely bluffing and MP2 was drawing to two outs with a very weak showdown hand. It's likely that a raise on the flop or turn forces them both out immediately which would be costly.

Raising is terrible if I'm up against a jack. If someone has a worse ace the raise may gain or lose. It depends on whether the third player calls down too, whether the third player would have called down without the raise, and whether the 14-out chop draw hits. The way you actually lose money is when the third player is forced out by the raise and you wind up chopping.

Raising a gutshot when I am ahead is good on the flop because I want him to call two or fold. It's still useful on the turn because SB has already put a bet in and MP2 will pay two even though he shouldn't even pay one.

Overall it seems like the raise is -EV. The hurt from raising a jack is much bigger than the possible benefit from raising when I am ahead. It does appear that the turn is the best time if you want to raise because you can abort if a chop card turns.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would usually have raised the flop, but after reading this I really like your line. Well played.

[TommyO]

These kinds of flops are why you should be raising pre-flop with this hand. You don't want someone with J4 seeing the flop cheaply.

[arkady]

i am with you on this one bud, i don't find raising ATs from early positions to be all that smart.

raising after a bunch of limpers is a whole different story.

[Trix]

I´d raise preflop unless UTG also limps good hands, but since he is unknown, I wouldn´t count on it. Postflop I play the same.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me ask you this though, on the river, if SB still bet into you, and no chop card falls, do you still call here or would you raise and fold to a 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think folding to a 3-bet is impossible given the read on SB.