Party Million hand that crippled me

[davidross]

Had a solid tournament up to this point. Made a very good laydown with QQ against AA early on, and dodged Aces another time too.

I have 10835 before posting the small blind. Blinds are 400/800, and I think there are 300 left, 180 to be paid. I'm above average, and in around 80th place I estimate. UTG raises to 1900. He has 15300. Folded to me in SB with JJ. I already hate it. I come very close to folding and decide that is just too tight. I call. Flop is 9h 7h 2c. I check, he bets 1700. I check-raise to 4K. He pushes immediately. I think and fold.

I chose 4K because it left me enough to have some play if re-raised. I really think he had me, but of course I'll never know.

Comments? Went out in 199th after my AJ ran into KK in a battle fo the blinds..Yuck.

[EnderIII]

I think the laydown is good, a lot of players go broke there, I can't really see someone reraising all-in without QQs-AAs or a set. I hate tangling with bigger stacks when i'm above average, but i do agree that folding JJ would probably be too tight in this spot. The main problem is that you don't know you are beat until you invest half your stack and that seems to be too big of a price to pay for information. I guess it was information that allowed you to still have some chips left.

I guess the only constructive thing i have to offer is that having an above average stack allows you the luxury of passing on hands you aren't that confident of. You never have to play a hand that you don't want to. But i imagine that this philosophy makes me miss out on a few opportunities to build a massive stack toward the end. Not sure if these comments are useful...but here they are.

[TheTimeIsUp]

If you are going to fold to that flop, lay it down preflop. Fold preflop if you are unconfident.

[JerseyGirl]

IF YOUR THE REAL DVC TELL ME YOUR FIRT NAME. I HACKED PARTY TONITE DURING THE TOURNY. /images/graemlins/cool.gif I WAS ALSO THE FLOOR PERSON /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[betgo]

I think you are pot committed and need to call the reraise. It would be better to either fold or checkraise allin when your opponent bet the flop.

You could also reraise allin preflop. That depends on your read of your opponent. A lot of people would limp with aces or kings, so it might not be that dangerous a move.

[davidross]

If I'm pot committed then I really played it wrong. I re-raised that amount on purpose because I suspected right from the start that he had the big pair, but couldn't make myself fold it without finding out for sure. But maybe he read me for that and pushed with something like AK.

THis is what I'm struggling with. How do you play JJ here? In his position I would bet that flop everytime no matter what i held, so I need to do something to find out how good he is, and I don't want to go bust with JJ here. Maybe I should bet out on the flop, and fold to a raise. Check-fold seems really tight again, but maybe it's best. I still don't know.

[davidross]

Huh???

[ilya]

What about betting out 3000-3200 on the flop and folding to a re-raise? It's cheaper, but I don't think he can re-raise or call you without having you beat.
OTOH you can win more if he folds to the check-raise. Argh. I dunno, tough hand.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I should bet out on the flop, and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to fold to a show of strength by your opponent, betting out and folding to a reraise seems like a much better plan. that way you won't be crippled if you fold. You invest much fewer chips.

You could also just check call. You might be able to collect a lot of chips from an opponent with high cards that way.

[Potowame]

I think betting out 4000 would have been better that the mini-check raise. The pot is so big He may have read that for weakness and thought he could push you out. What I mean is relative to your stack size the pot was big enough that with a strong hand you would like to take it down right there and not give odds to a flush or if You had QQ-JJ overs hit on the turn. just a thought.

[j0wlev]

What do you think of the UTG raisor, is his EP raising standards the same as his middle and late raising standards.

Only a solid player would pot-raise UTG with Aces or Kings. A weaker player would look for action with maybe a min-raise. The flop may be perfect for you but even better for QQ, which I put the UTG raiser on considering hes got good merits. If not, I'd say something like QQ or AK.

I would have folded pre-flop because he could bust you in that hand, had he had a third of your stack I woulda rammed and jammed the flop and tried to bust him.

You gotta think about UTG POSSIBLE raising hands, all which have a SLIGHT dog or a 4.5:1 advantage. There is more ways to make AA, KK, and QQ (12) then there is AK (6). Folding is right way to play.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
Had a solid tournament up to this point. Made a very good laydown with QQ against AA early on, and dodged Aces another time too.

I have 10835 before posting the small blind. Blinds are 400/800, and I think there are 300 left, 180 to be paid. I'm above average, and in around 80th place I estimate. UTG raises to 1900. He has 15300. Folded to me in SB with JJ. I already hate it. I come very close to folding and decide that is just too tight. I call. Flop is 9h 7h 2c. I check, he bets 1700. I check-raise to 4K. He pushes immediately. I think and fold.

I chose 4K because it left me enough to have some play if re-raised. I really think he had me, but of course I'll never know.

Comments? Went out in 199th after my AJ ran into KK in a battle fo the blinds..Yuck.

[/ QUOTE ]

David, in this type of hand I would probably try to get to showdown as cheap as possible. I think a call on the flop might be a better play. Your c/r isn't going to get a hand that is beating you to lay down. And you obviuosly don't know if it is a value bet.

By flat calling the flop, there are lots of cards that will freeze the action on the turn. A heart, an Ace if doesn't have AK or AA (or if he does, he might get tricky and try to trap the river where you can decide whether to call his bet.
Also, you may get lucky and hit your J on the turn.

The only problem with flatcalling is that the turn maybe very tricky to play, but that is poker. The dream scenario is that you call the flop, Ace turn and he checks down his TT.

[ZeeJustin]

I don't think folding preflop is that bad.

Did you consider check calling the flop and betting the turn? This really puts your opponent to the test.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think folding preflop is that bad.

Did you consider check calling the flop and betting the turn? This really puts your opponent to the test.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just what I was thinking, you could invest the same amount of chips as the check raise but it looks much stronger.

[davidross]

He had come to our table just a short while before, and certainly wasn't loose. Seemed pretty solid.

Folding pre-flop is certainly what I have been thinking about. But I don't think I would have folded 55, so how can I fold JJ? I am getting set odds(implied) so shouldn't I see a flop at least?

[davidross]

I like the line Nick, thanks.

I've been wondering at what point you just say, "If my JJ ran into a better hand I'm out of luck" and play it strongly, but I think I found out what I wanted, at a price of course. I did double up shortly afterwards and got back to 8K in chips, so I wasn't dead yet.

[Whitey]

I'm surprised no one has suggested re-raising pre-flop.

I think it achieves the same result and costs you less chips.If he re-raises you all in then you could decide weather he has AK/QQ (if hes solid) or a smaller pocket pair.If he re-raises you a smaller amount then you might be looking at AA/KK,either way it costs you less chips to make your final decision.

[davidross]

I considered it. My problem was I was afraid he might just call with AA, KK or AK leaving me in the dark and out of position onthe flop. I wanted to pick a time where I could be really sure he had it. But as I write this I realize I spent the whole hand looking for an excuse to fold. If that's my mindset, and I really think I made a good but expensive fold, then I probably should just fold preflop or on the flop.

[partygirluk]

Why is this line better? Please could someone explain?
I confess that I would play it the same as David, and I would feel pretty ugly about the hand afterwards.
Knowing why your line is superior could lead to improvements in my game in many ways.

[rjamesd]

"there is more ways to make AA, KK, and QQ (12) then there is AK (6). Folding is right way to play. "


huh? someone tell me im crazy here....

QsQd
QsQh
QsQc
QdQh
QdQc
QcQh

so for AA-QQ 3 x 6 = 18

As(Ks,Kc,Kh,Kd)
Ad(Ks,Kc,Kh,Kd)
Ah(Ks,Kc,Kh,Kd)
Ac(Ks,Kc,Kh,Kd)

so 16 ways to make AK

[betgo]

The probability of getting AK is about equal to that of AA, KK, and QQ put together. There are a lot of hands an early position raiser could have: AA-99, AK, AQ, AJs, ATs, KQs. A tight player might have a narrower range and someone playing loosely could have all sorts of hands.

I wouldn't be so scared you are up against a bigger pair. I think reraising allin preflop is a good option. With the low flop, you should probably be ready to commit all your chips.

If you are afraid of a big pair, lead out with a 3000 chip bet on the flop and then fold or shut down if you don't pick up the pot. The way you played it, you found out you were probably beat, but you lost so many chips in the process that you might as well have pushed.

[Che]

David-

I think you have to call or raise preflop. Folding is very weak-tight.

On the flop, I'm torn between betting out 4000 (and folding to a raise) or taking a check-and-see line.

Given the check, I like calling the 1700 and betting any A or /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the turn. Probably bet any K, too.

So, that's probably 19 semi-bluffing cards (11 hearts, 4 A, 4K - depending on whether or not you have the J /images/graemlins/heart.gif) plus 2 J's out of 47 possible turn cards.

Hmmm, I'm still torn, but I'm leaning towards betting out since the player seems to be solid but not overly LAG.

As played, I think his insta-push has you buried so folding is painful but correct.

Tough one,
Che

[PokerGoblin]

I didn't read every post so if this is a repeat I apologize in advance...

What you describe is exactly the problem late in a party poker tournament... you don't have enough chips in respect to the blinds to gain information. In a tournament on stars, you start w/ 50% more chips, so theoritically that same situation isn't nearly as detrimental to your stack.

I once lost late in the tourney in a similar situation where I, from the BB holding QQ got it all in against the chip leader SB w/ AA after it folded around. Not that has any relavence at all.

I assume this left you w/ about 5k? Thats enough to survive about 5 full orbits, so now you're going to have to double up just to get back to the average. The problem with the hand is that if you think you're beat you need to fold. I have folded preflop hands that a ton of people would have played ( I don't know if that's good or bad). The point is, you have plenty of chips to wait for a much better spot or better opponents to play against than the chip leader who has position on you.

PG

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the check, I like calling the 1700 and betting any A or /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the turn. Probably bet any K, too.

So, that's probably 19 semi-bluffing cards (11 hearts, 4 A, 4K - depending on whether or not you have the J /images/graemlins/heart.gif) plus 2 J's out of 47 possible turn cards.

Hmmm, I'm still torn, but I'm leaning towards betting out since the player seems to be solid but not overly LAG.



[/ QUOTE ]

i'm surprised you suggest betting out if a K or A falls on the turn. if i were to take that line, i'd want to be doing it when a blank hit. after the villain raises pre-flop, we're guessing he's about even chance to QQ-AA or AK. but if a K hits, then the only way betting out is good is if he has specifically QQ (or maybe AQ/TT/88 if he's raising utg with them. however, TT or 88 will probably check it down anyway).

on the other hand, when a blank hits, you can lead out and almost definitely win the pot from AK. i think AK would be pretty unlikely to make a play in that case, so you should be able to get away safely if he raises or calls.

but to echo someone else's question, why is this line better than the flop c/r? you're just giving AK a 6-outer.

FWIW, i think my prefered line is to call pre-flop and lead the flop. if he's willing to raise a missed AK, more power (and chips) to him.

[NLfool]

[ QUOTE ]
He had come to our table just a short while before, and certainly wasn't loose. Seemed pretty solid.

Folding pre-flop is certainly what I have been thinking about. But I don't think I would have folded 55, so how can I fold JJ? I am getting set odds(implied) so shouldn't I see a flop at least?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is 55 is much easier to play as you aren't going to lose that much trying to "protect" your hand postflop that you think you're in the lead.

[DonT77]

I don't like the PF call. Here's my thinking- after you put in your SB you're down to 13xBB. You're getting close to being at the fold or all-in stage. Calling 1900 leaves you at about 11xBB. You are about 8 to 1 to flop set and you can only be comfortable that you are ahead if you do flop a set. The most you can win (say you flop a jack and he can't fold his AA) is another 8935 if you can get him all-in; so in your best case you'll win 13535 on your call of 1900 or about 7 to 1. If you don’t flop a set, you’ll be at a great disadvantage since you’ll be playing against a larger stack and out of position. I think you have to fold PF or raise all-in, and that would have to be dependent on your read- if he’s tight (AQ or better) I’m folding, and if he’s loose (Axs, suited connectors, AT, KJ, etc) then I’m re-raising all-in. IMO, against a tight/solid player, JJ is no better than 22 in this situation in that it can only be played for set value (but here you don’t have the implied odds).

[fnord_too]

Read on UTG? (VPIP, PFR would be real nice to know here)

I think against an average opponent you need to push this pre flop. Barring that, I think you need to push the flop. Your stack is not deep enough to play this without committing yourself on this flop. Really, I like pushing pre flop here if UTG is attacking the blinds with any regularity, and probably folding if he has a low PFR (on the order of 5%). With a more likely PFR of 9-10%, this is just a tough spot.

Folding pre flop is better than your line IMO. Though it can be argued that your small c/r on the flop will get UTG out if he has nothing, you are giving him huge odds (8.3:2.3 if my math is correct) to draw on you, and if he is going to continue with the hand he might as well push if there is a good chance you will fold. I can see calling preflop, but when the flop calls all unders, you should push the flop. Check-Raise-Folding, Check-Calling, and Check-Folding are all bad. Check raising all in is not bad, but then you run a greater risk of going to a showdown.

Was one of your jacks a heart? I like your hand post flop a little more if so.

[Che]

Good points, Dan.

Now I'm glad I said I was leaning toward betting out rather than calling and betting the turn. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

But, I hope ZJ will explain why he likes the call/bet turn line since I'm probably missing something that he sees.

The bottom line is that this is just a great example of why JJ is so hard to play when you're out of position against a strong opponent.

Later,
Che

[zaxx19]

It isnt that HARD to play it just needs to be played decisively at that point in a tourney. IF you read him for having an overpair I probably dont even play it for set value as there are no assurances you have odds only against 1 opponent and he is tight at that. If you are going to play it for both set and JJ intrinsic value, then the flop is either a move in or checkraise all-in here. Your hand is way to tight to see another card IMHO, and the pot is big enough to take right there with presumably the best the best hand.

If you believe the opponent is bullying with a good chance that he has a inferior hand then a move in is proper. 3 options the rest just dont strike me as decisive and correct poker though I admittedly dont want to be bluffing here for all my chips.