Ante structure and starting hands (F'woods 1/3, 50 cent ante)

[AKQJ10]

I'm a new 7-stud player who's trying to learn it to diversify my knowledge. This is probably a FAQ but I can't think of any way to search for it.

I plan to play online at micro-limits and at Foxwoods' 1/3 until I'm confident I know what I'm doing. I'm getting most of my basic starting hand selection from Hellmuth's chapter (ultra-tight: mostly limited to high pairs and three-card straight flushes!) and http://www.studstrategy.com (a bit looser).

However, I'm pretty sure that the high ante in this game, 1/6 the biggest bet size, means that I should be playing somewhat looser. However, it would be really hard to steal the antes in this game.

Is trying to beat the rake at 1/3 just fruitless? Should I wait until I'm confident enough to play 1/5 or higher? And most online sites seem to have a high ante structure too... is that a valid way to test my knowledge?

[B Mando]

PokerStars has a good stud structure...you should check it out.

[CJC]

Hello,

[ QUOTE ]
(ultra-tight: mostly limited to high pairs and three-card straight flushes!)

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is how you really play.. DONT play in the Foxwoods game. you will get murdered..

Actually, using your strategy.. you should only be playing in a no ante game.. even then I doubt you will win much..

Phil Helmuth is the LAST person on this planet I would listen too for stud advice.. or any advice on limit games if you ask me..

CJ

[Andy B]

I'm sure that Hellmuth is good to his kids and all, but a lot of his advice is bizarre. I will confess that I haven't read the stud section of that book yet (I get busy with thumbing through baseball cards and all, y'know), but his limit hold'em advice is just plain crazy. Maybe I'll read that this week and get back to you. In the mean time, pick up Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players: 21st Century Edition.

You don't want to play ultra-tight like this in this game. There is a big, big difference between the game that Hellmuth plays in and the ones that you are planning on playing in. Hellmuth is primarily a tournament player, and you're going to be playing in small-limit cash games. Tournament play is characterized by a lot of short-handed pots and ante-stealing. Low-limit cash games are characterized by multi-way action. You're usually going to have to show down the best hand to win the pot in those games. While you should play somewhat loose, don't get carried away with it.

In a tournament, you can intimidate oppoenents because if they call and lose, they're out of the tournament. If someone loses his buy-in in a tournament, he can reach into his pocket, go to the ATM, hit the window, find his friendly neighborhood loan shark, etc., etc. It ain't the end of the world. In a $1-3 game in particular, you're going to get called. Forget about making moves.

The rake has some effect on how you should play your hands in a small game. In a tournament, you pay the juice up front, and the pots are not raked.

If Hellmuth really says you should play that tight, it's probably a good strategy for someone who doesn't play stud but insists on playing in stud tournaments because, well, because he's a tournament player. Garden-variety three-flushes aren't going to be nearly as profitable in a tournament as they are in a low-limit cash game, as you're not going to get that multi-way action, and you may not get paid at all if you make your hand. Even for a tournament player, though, there's a lot more to this game than playing tight.

Three-flushes are some of the most profitable hands you can play. About the only reason to dump them is if it costs a lot to play in a short-handed pot, or if three or more of your cards are dead. Even with dead cards, if you have some high cards you can pair, you may want to play. I would also play higher three-straights for up to one bet. I would play most live pair/live kicker combinations for the bring-in.

I haven't read everything on studstrategy.com, but most of what I have read is suspect at best.

[MRBAA]

First of all, it depends on the lineup. CJ and I sat in a 1-3 game where the people basically played AS IF there was no ante -- the WOULD fold easily. So it often made sense to raise $3 right away with hands like (6K)6 -- when maybe only two players remained to act, for example. The chance of stealing $4 with your $3 bet is justtoo tempting. Even getting head up with a bigger pair isn't awful here, especially if the other player is weak and will give you free cards when you don't improve.

With a more loose aggressive lineup, stealing might lose some value, but you should still limp many hands hoping to continue when you hit and get paid off.

I'd play any flush, any straight from 678 up, any pair, and any three cards J or over. Live cards is the key -- like I'll play my pair of Ts with a few opponents even if one T is dead. But I won't play my 3s in the same circumstance. Similarly, I'll play my (AJ)4 three flush even with three of my suit dead. But I won't play with three dead cards if it's (8J)4.

You'd think an overante would help the worse players, but in reality it hurts them because it gives the good player more opportunities to make plays against them. If you can't CRUSH the FW 1-3, get to work until you can!

CJ and I sat in this game for perhaps 2 hours and each left up 15BB and we were totally playing loose and screwing around.

[MBTIGUY]

Agreed that PokerStars has a good ante structure for its games. The games tend to play tight but not always.

Paradise Poker has a no-ante .50/1.00 game that is a great place to learn basic A-B-C tight play. No-ante encourages ultra-tight play but most of the games there play pretty loose-passive. Therefore, the tight player can do well. The 2/4 game has a .25 ante and $1.00 bring-in, so you don't have to loosen your starting req'ts too much there.

Forget Hellmuth and get Roy West 7 Card Stud. It's a great starting book.

[Fangface]

If you think that studstrategy.com is "suspect at best". Is there any other internet site you would recommend me to read to learn some 7cs, beside the litterature I've seen ppl talk about here? Im new to this game and would like to read some good stuff on the net before I go any further.

[Andy B]

This site has the best stud information on the web that I'm aware of. Of course, I may be biased.

Buy a damned book already.

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