Getting CRUSHED by Amateurs!! HELP ME!!!!

[t_petrosian]

Ok..I'll do my best NOT to make this yet another bad beat post. However, I need help. I began nifty little home tournament game - 10 person, $25 or $50 buy in. Anyway, I have only had two of these, but I have busted out both times and earned the laughs of a few of these guys - being the "experienced player" vs. beginners. And let me tell you, these guys are beginners. I mean, on some of the hands, I'm having to explain simple crap.

Anyway, on with my unfortunateness. Last week - 1st ever tournament. My strategy is to let the idiots knock each other out and then start moving when about half of the people get knocked out. Play quality hands, because I figure almost everyone will be in every pot. A bunch of calling stations. Well, that happened. HOwever, because of beer and drunks, before I know what's happening, we've gone through one level of blinds with only 3 hands delivered. The problem here is - before too long, blinds are big (we started with T1000 and 10/15 blinds, 20 minutes levels). So, I steal a couple pots, then pick up AJs on the button. BLinds 25/50. So I raise to 150. BB goes all in (90 more) so I call of course. He has 64off. Well, he catches a 4 on the turn and I'm down to about 800 chips. Moving on, I don't see much of anything, before too long, I have 500 chips and there are two monster stacks at my table. Finally I pick up AA after a raise to 300 in front of me. Well, DUH. I push. Called, called and called by original raiser. Long story short - 96 was the orginal raiser. Board = 99467. Goodbye me.

Next tourney - last night: I slow the blind structure down to 5/10 start to give a little more play this week. I employ the same strategy. Everyone limps into every pot, throws out the minimum raise and someone takes it down. It may as well be slots. Anyway, 5 limpers in front of me on this hand. I look down to KK in the cutoff. YAY! I raise to 125 (blinds 10/20 here). I get called in two places and everyone else folds. Flop = 357 rainbow. Check, check then to me. I slightly over-bet the pot figuring I'm up against Ax and maybe a couple face cards..who knows. Anyway, I get called in one place. Turn = A. End of story. You all know he had Ax. In fact, A2...so his explanation of his "brilliant" hand was that he was trying to catch the 4 for the straight. Anyway, I get hit again with blinds as they increase, I struggle for a while, but go out 5th yet again.

So, my question is - how the F should I be playing these things? It seems like tight/aggressive has killed me. I know that the average person in 9 to 1 to win these things, so I should be maybe 4 to 1. But I doubt I'm that. I figure I could play the loose/passive low-stakes holdem approach (Axsuited, suited connectors, etc...) but just not enough time to do much. SHould I be limping more trying to "catch" and then hope to outplay on the flop, keeping the pots small, not risking much, but allowing others to draw to their hands?

Please give me ideas!

Ashamed, humiliated and beaten!!

[ghostface]

You played both of those hands fine. Stay tight and go easy on the beat stories.

[Vetstadium]

I've encountered the same problem at home games (not tooting my own horn) but think I am a good player. If you are at a table with 9 players and you are the one who only really understands the game it is hard to win. You can't bluff them and they don't understand a raise or reraise. I was in a home game with 27 players $100 buy in and the play was absolutely awful. Anyway I have pocket Kings at the final table and I raise 4x blind this drunk idiot who has no clue who is in every pot reraises me all in. I call well he has two suited cards 10,4 of spades and hits trip tens. Nothing you can do with bad players just in the long run you know you will win. With a big field like that though I stopped playing if I am the only decent player I look at it like 26 vs 1 and have a small chance. Hope this helps sometimes you are better off playing players who know how to play with say 2 or 3 fish at the table.

[jaydoggie]

stay tight, get more aggressive. bet more pf, they will call you. you wont be losing much action. infact they might call you with less because they think its funny. if you make top pair, bet the F out of it. they arent going to trap you, youre not walking into a monster. they will call you with nothing, gutshots, unders, overs, outdoor straight draws. if you have top pair soak them! dont play more hands, just wait for your kings, bet huge pf, and go allin or a huge amount on the flop. if you get outdrawn then you know its a bad beat and you can live. when you win, you'll have your chips to roll through the rest of the weak loose maniacs.

[Daliman]

You're not raising enough with your premium hands, and giving too much odds to run you down.

Remember this as your raising formula preflop at all times, unless you are specifically trapping/milking, or are putting in more than 4)5 of your stack by rasising, whereby you may as well push, unless you specifically want action;

3xBB + 2x limpers or raisers total=proper raise size.

Therefore, on your fateful KK hand, 3xBB =60 + 5 limpers for 20 equaling 100 total, so 100x2= 200

200+60=260 proper raise size

If A2 wants to call 240 more, god bless 'em.

But also, once that flop hits, NOW your pot sized bet with two limpers is all in. Much tougher call with a gutshot and one overcard only, but I 've seen way worse.

This is also a quick and dirty way to get approximately pot sized raises preflop, always confusing for me before.

[t_petrosian]

Yeah...I hear you guys. Stay tight, be more aggressive. It's just annoying as hell that I'm the one they all think should be doing well, then when I finally play a hand (something they laugh at - all the folding I do), I play it big and get busted. THey must get a kick out of it. Annie Duke's parting comments at last year's WSOP ring so true...

Anyway, as an answer to my frustration, I logged onto Party Poker and won 3 $30 SNGs in a row, then placed first in an 87-person tourney.

Thanks for the comments!

[MrMon]

1. First mistake - You let these guys know you are good. Never ever do that with rank amateurs, you've just put a target on yourself.

2. Why are you explaining your hands? To make them better? Or are you showing off? Better you say "I just got lucky."

3. Are you actually telling these people they don't know how to play when they win with crap? Another mistake if you are, and when you lose, you only look even worse. They win, you say "Nice hand", nothing more.

4. You sound like you set up a fish tank and expect to win. Going in with that attitude is a sure road to ruin, not to mention a good way to lose friends. They are here to have fun, are you?

5. How many times online do you see people complaining you cracked their pocket As, Ks, or Qs, like just getting those two cards gives them a divine right to win? You have the same attitude. Being good gives you a better chance to win, it doesn't make you bulletproof.

6. Are you on tilt because you keep losing. Sounds like you might be.

7. Always adjust your game to the table. What works at a table of pros will not work with a table of drunken amateurs. Haven't you ever heard that the table pros fear most is a table of rank amatuers, because you can't play them rationally. They don't know the "rules", therefore the standard manuevers don't work.

8. Long term, you have the advantage. Short term, these know nothings can make a monkey of you. Two tourneys is very short term.

9. It's too late for you on a lot of these items, but the rest of us sure can learn. Meanwhile, relax, have fun, and realize you need to develop a strategy different for this game vs. online. I would suggest playing way more hands for cheap, get the nuts, then bet hard. You already know they won't respond to bluffs and will call anything, you might as well profit from it.