If it is a good hand why is it so hard to play? (TT)

[commadore]

MP3 is new to the table (5 hands). He is loose but has not raise PF yet.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP3 checks.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

The 3-bet flop made me think it was a PP, but I stuck around anyway. I'm open to criticism on any street.

[CinnamonWind]

You'll probably be shown QQ or JJ here.

[private joker]

I agree he's probably got QQ or JJ. He checked through because he got scared of the K when you called it, even though it's silly of QQ to check this river.

If you want to get fancy, you could check-raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet. If he just calls your c/r, lead the river and see if he folds JJ. That would be cool; I've seen it happen before (by terrible players, obviously).

But TT isn't all that hard to play. I like it. Raise PF, jam a flop with undercards, check-raise a flopped set (from EP) if you get 3-bet PF, and check-fold an ugly flop with two broadway cards (one of which is an A). Value bet the river. This is probably just a bad case of running into a bigger PP, but it doesn't happen very often. I think you'll find in your PT stats that TT is a profitable hand. It's one of my winningest.

[JimRivett]

I would play this the same way, he has position on you and has shown strength in the first 2 betting rounds.

In loose games 10 10 usually needs to improve to win.

Jim

[eagletmr]

through 15,000 2 + 4 hands, TT is my roommates biggest loser. And I also lose some with it at my limits. I guess we don't play it correctly. He only has 15,000 hands, but still with it being his biggest loser and it should be one of his biggest winners, something is wrong. I've heard of
playing it too passively and weak tight as causing it to become a loser, but he doesn't seem to do this, and he doesn't overplay it either. 15,000 (total hands, 80 TT) too small a sample?

EDIT: My roommates TT stats, short sample I know,

times:66
BB/H: (0.62)
VPIP:97
W$WSF: 26
PFR:62
RFI: 17
WtSD: 47
W$SD: 37

I assume not aggressive enough preflop and seeing too many rivers?

[commadore]

After 17K hands TT is my 6th biggest winner. Maybe I do like it. Foldling to the 3-bet on the flop is not an option, correct?

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]

I assume not aggressive enough preflop and seeing too many rivers?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's really hard to say just looking at stats, and I'm the last guy to ask about stats (trust me), but it sure does appear to the layman that he sees way too many rivers. Just because TT is a very good PF hand doesn't mean it's worth sticking with all the way. My guess is this guy doesn't lay down KK either when he runs into serious action with an A on the board.

[spamuell]

Without the K falling, the turn is tough to play. You probably have to call down although I hate it. I hate check-folding the turn as well.

With the K, it's the easiest check-fold ever.

[Number4]

I agree that you probably saw qq or jj at the river on this one. If I knew my opponent, I would at times lead this river here and be willing to fold to a re-raise.

Overall, I play this exactly the same. Just a question - what would you have done if there was a river bet?

Also, over 75k hands, TT is my ninth biggest winner, so there is money to be made there.

[commadore]

I was planning on calling a river bet. But I didn't like it. I felt that the correct time to fold (if I was going to fold) was to the 3-bet on the flop. The reason I check raised was so I could fold if he re-raised. But I didn't follow throught on it. I hope that was because I had no read on him (he was new to the table) but I fear it was because I am not capable of making good correct folds.

[kelvin474]

How about bet-3bet the flop? If MP raises which seems likely you can make UTG+1 either fold something that could beat you or incorrectly call on a weak draw like pair or gutshot. You have a hand that has a good chance of being best (if AK and AQs are in his 3-bet arsenal. Maybe he'd do this with AQo or AJs too? so much the better), but is unlikely to get much better so I think this is a good spot to knock out UTG+1 by making him face 2 cold. A bet is likely to do this.

I don't believe this is a "wait till the turn to raise" situation because there are reasonable hands UTG+1 can have here that you can force to make a mistake by calling 2 cold (as i said earlier, a pair or a gutshot, overcards wtih a backdoor flush).

The C/R with likely bettor to your left will not remove anyone from contention and I think theres enough in the pot that you want to ponchado UTG+1. well i guess it worked anyway! i just read that part.

On the turn: What are you beating here? AQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif I guess but he has about 15 outs and everything else reasonable has you crushed. Guess he's an unkown so we can't really assume he's reasonable. I migth bet this turn and fold to a raise.

Now another one: say you act after your one opp. on the turn. What do you think of raising the turn and dumping to a 3-bet, planning to check behind the (non T) river?
Thanks for posting, I had fun analyzing.

[kelvin474]

Maybe he just missed his sets and some of them got shown flushes or straights. I think the standard error can chew this one up after that many hands but no analysis to back it up.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
In loose games 10 10 usually needs to improve to win.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would change this to "after being three-bet both preflop and after a raggedy flop, TT usualy needs to improve to win." /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Richard Berg]

[ QUOTE ]

If you want to get fancy, you could check-raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet. If he just calls your c/r, lead the river and see if he folds JJ. That would be cool; I've seen it happen before (by terrible players, obviously).

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone else think this is chip-spewing? That's 2 extra BB -- 100 hands' profit -- you're tossing in the pot when your opponent almost certainly has the best of it, so you have to be darn sure you'll bluff him out often enough.

Let's say he has AA-99/AK/AQs. AA/KK/AK/99 will never fold, so you lose 1-3BB depending on whether he pops you again immediately or traps you on the next street. AQs will probably take a free card and/or fold the river no matter what, so +0BB. QQ-TT might fold; when he does, +4.5-10BB depending on whether you were splitting and how far into the hand he pays you off, -2BB when he doesn't. Punching all that into my dusty old TI-89, I get that he has to fold QQ-TT to your line 44% of the time. I don't like it.

Side note, is folding JJ against that much aggression from an unknown so terrible? Once check-raised, villian's getting just 5:1 to see a showdown.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]

Side note, is folding JJ against that much aggression from an unknown so terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's terrible if you call the turn and fold the river. If you think JJ is no good on the river, how can it be good on the turn? If you're JJ, you either call the turn and call the river, or fold to the turn c/r (in the chip-spewing line).

Anyway, I'm not all that in favor of the turn check-raise. I just suggested it as an alternate line that I've seen work before. But an alternate is all it is.

[Tk79]

My net winning go as such AA, QQ, KK, JJ, TT. My BB/hand go like this AA, QQ, KK, JJ, AQs, TT. This is over a 46k database. TT is a very profitable hand if played properly. The way I play it is if many ppl have already entered the pot I limp and hope for unders or a set. If there are few ppl in the pot i raise hoping to isolate and win unimproved. Post flop is a bit more complicated but you cant get married to TT. Thats a good way to make it very unprofitable.

[D.H.]

I think you should bet and 3-bet the flop. It's a vulnerable hand so you don't mind pushing UTG+1 out of the hand. This also gives you a better read on MP3. If he calls your 3-bet you lead out on the turn, if he then raises you again you're in trouble.

© D.H.

[sthief09]

check-fold the turn

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
With the K, it's the easiest check-fold ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Regularly making these types of calls is a serious leak.

[StellarWind]

The flop 3-bet is an easy call. You are getting 16-1 on 3 outs (backdoor straight) plus he may have AK/AQ and take a free card on the turn. It has to be +EV to peel a card.

The hard decision is what to do about a blank turn. Do you pay another 2 BB on the chance you're good or do you fold?

The K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif definitely simplifies that decision. Easy fold.

[commadore]

Knew I played it wrong, but at least I got paid off. He turned over AQo.

[brian0729]

Does everybody like the flop C/R? I think I like a bet and call a raise. Then check/calling a turn blank.

I agree with the others the K, makes this an easy turn fold.

[Mike Gallo]

I do not.

I like your line.

[ErrantNight]

i much prefer to bet this flop. i'd like to get UTG+1 out of this hand...

it's one less sb on the flop, and let's you re-evaluate on the turn.

if consecutive blanks, i like check/call, bet/fold.

against that king it's an easy turn fold, if you improve you've got an easy c/r along the way.