What does it mean to Outplay Someone after the FLOP?

[The Absolute]

Please attempt to provide a definition.

[bicyclekick]

Make them make a mistake, whether it be calling with the worst of it or folding with the best of it. Or even as minor as not raising when they should. PLaying suboptimally.

[Cooker]

It means that you have such good control over your opponent that you are going to be able to win almost every hand where you are ahead on the flop and many hands when you are a little behind. It also means that you should be able to get good value out of your mediocre hands (i.e. second pair) when you are ahead, but be able to get away from them fairly cheaply when you are behind.

If it is on any time soon, you should watch the WPT episode from season one of the WPT invitational. Layne Flack ends up heads up with Jerry Buss and puts on a classic display of one player (Flack) continually outplaying the other after the flop. At least he does in most of the hands shown on the show.

[Monty Cantsin]

This is a great question.

I've thought a lot about this because I always wanted to be this type of player, the type who outplays someone, and I assumed that this meant that at some point during the hand you would do some specific play that would cause the other guy to fold the winning hand or put in a ton of extra bets with the loser, or something like that. And so I was always looking for these special maneuvers and mostly not finding them.

But if you really think about it, you don't have all that many opportunities in Hold'em to make these kinds of moves. Sometimes you can make these moves and they work and it's great, but as we all know trying to pull this kind of stuff constantly is a one way ticket to fps-central-burg-itis, often it's straightforward play that gets the bucks.

So then I thought of a better definition: If you outplay someone it means that you play better than them in general. So for instance pre-flop you might be thinking about defending your blind against a raise from a weak player and you might think "I think I can outplay this guy post-flop, so I'm gonna defend". So you put him on a range of hands and the flop comes and he bets and you decide the best thing to do is fold. Did you outplay him post flop?

Yes. And here's the important thing - because that's a fold he wouldn't have made if the situation were reversed. Over the course of all the different possible ways for this encounter to unfold you will earn more, on average, when you are ahead, and lose less, on average, when you are behind. Yeah, occasionally you will steal the pot with an awesome bluff-raise but that's not the essential thing.

So there are really two meanings to this phrase, when you make a fancy play that earns a lot of extra bets then that's outplaying someone, but when you simply play better and make fewer mistakes in general than that's also outplaying someone, although you might not see any dramatic evidence of it in one particular hand. And this second meaning is much more important I think.

/mc

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Make them make a mistake, whether it be calling with the worst of it or folding with the best of it. Or even as minor as not raising when they should. PLaying suboptimally

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree but you left out folding when you should, thereby not paying them off. Especially when in the same situation, they would be paying you off. That's like a double profit, conceptwise.

Many (newer players) tend to forget how important folding is as a factor to 'outplaying' opponents. They associate outplaying with just winning the hand.

b

[As Zehn]

I think the answer is the Fundamental Theory of Poker. When you can get your oppponent to play differently from what they would do if they knew what cards you held you have outplayed them.

[benfranklin]

Expanding on several of the answers above, another way to look at this would be in terms of Sklansky's Eight Mistakes of Poker. (I was about to give a reference to it, but see that the Essays link on the left has been removed.) Basically, outplaying your opponent would involve not making any of those mistakes, while acting in such a way as to cause your opponent to make one.

For example, one mistake is calling when you should fold. If you raise so that your opponent is not getting proper pot odds to call, and he calls anyway, then you have caused him to make this mistake.

[tek]

I just happen to have his articles, voila:

Eight Mistakes in Poker by David Sklansky

What makes one person a winning poker player and a second person a losing one? Assuming they both play in equally tough games, the obvious answer is that the winning player plays better.

What does it mean to play better? This question can be answered in many ways, but it all boils down to one thing: the better player makes the correct play more often in a particular situation. In other words, he makes fewer major mistakes. What kind of mistakes is a bad player apt to make? On first glance, it may seem that there are many bad plays that one can make in poker; the fact of the matter is that they all fall into one of eight categories.

When someone is playing limit poker, there are only five possible options. If he is first to act, he can check or bet. If someone else has bet, he can call, raise or fold. (How much to bet or raise is an additional decision in no-limit poker. Thus, no-limit adds the possibility of betting or raising the wrong amount. This mistake will not be covered in this chapter.) All limit poker plays can be reduced to one of these five decisions. Making the wrong decision is the only error that can be made. Every poker mistake can thus be placed in one of the following eight categories:

These mistakes are made by good and bad players. However, some of these errors are worse than others, and the bad player is more apt to make one of the critical mistakes. Let us examine each of the foregoing possible mistakes.

Mistake 1. Checking When You Should Bet. This is one of the most common and critical mistakes in poker. When there are more cards to come, it is usually correct to bet a mediocre hand if you are first to act. This is true even if your hand figures to be second best, and it is especially true if you have to call after you have checked and your opponent has bet. Betting accomplishes two things. Your opponent may fold if his hand isn't as good as you thought. Also, even if he doesn't fold, you have shown strength that may allow you to steal the pot on a later round.

Another situation in which players tend to check when they should bet is on the end with a hopeless hand. In other words, they don't try to bluff. It is not necessary that the bluff be favored to work in order for it to be worthwhile. You are usually getting odds of anywhere from 5-to-1 to 10-to-1 on your bluff, so it only has to work occasionally to show a profit. You also gain advertising value when you are caught.

A third example of this error is checking on the end with a big hand in hopes of getting in a check raise. It is frequently better just to bet than to attempt to maneuver a check raise. This is even more true against tough players who are capable of folding when you check raise. You may also win three bets by betting rather than checking.

Mistake 2. Betting When You Should Check.

Suckers frequently make this mistake when all the cards are out and they are betting a decent hand, but can only get called if they are beaten. Trying a hopeless bluff is another example of this mistake. Better players will sometimes make this error when they bet a fair hand on the end for value in situations when they are more likely to win an extra bet on the end by checking and calling than by betting (usually because checking gives them a chance to snap off a bluff).

Players will also occasionally bet instead of going for a check raise, the correct play in certain situations. For example, suppose you are playing seven-card lowball; you have an X X 8c 3h 2d and your opponent has X X 7h 5c Kd Qc

The right play is to check raise with a 6-low, but players don't. If you bet, your opponent will probably just call with a 7; if you check, he will probably bet.

Another instance when the opportunity to check raise is often missed is illustrated by the following example. Suppose you are playing draw poker, jacks or better to open. The player to your right opens, and you call with a Ah Kh Qh 7h 2c (flush draw). Two or more players come in after initially checking and draw one card, obviously to flushes or straights. The opener also takes one card and checks. You should check your flush if you make it because the worst that can happen is that you lose one bet from the opener in the event that everyone else misses his hand. If you check and someone else bets (either because he made his hand or because he is trying to steal the pot), you figure to win three bets instead of one. If you bet yourself, you figure to just get called by the come hand; the opener won't overcall. An added advantage to checking in this spot is that you save money if the opener fills up. If he check raises one of the other players, you just fold.

Mistake 3. Calling When You Should Fold. This mistake is made by most players in the early rounds of betting because they don't understand the concept of effective odds.

Briefly stated, the concept suggests that it is not worth chasing with a hand even when it appears you are getting good odds because of the bets to follow.

Another situation in which players make this mistake is when they do not consider the fact that they may make the hand they are drawing to but still lose. However, this mistake is only critical in an early round of betting. With one card to come, mistakenly drawing to two pair against an obvious flush getting 7-to-1 odds really costs you a fraction of a bet and is no big deal. (Which is why the "percentage players" with no real feel for the game can't beat some of the better players who may make this error.)

Another example of Mistake No. 3 is calling on the end "for the size of the pot" when it is impossible that you could have the best hand. I see this a lot.

Mistake 4. Calling When You Should Raise. This is probably the worst mistake and the most common. When there is a lot of money in the pot, you should usually try to narrow the field by raising when another player bets. Most players will do this if they figure to have a somewhat better hand than the bettor on their right. however, they will usually just call if they think their hand is much better in hopes of trapping players behind them. They are probably wrong. You really need a monster hand to slow-play in this situation. Even then there is no guarantee that the other players would not call a double bet.

In the situation where you probably have the second best hand, it is also worth raising in order to give yourself the best chance to win the pot. This play may also get you a free card on the next betting round, as you may now be checked to.

Calling instead of raising in head-up situations is a frequent mistake as well. Even when it appears you can't beat the bettor, a raise has three advantages: (1) Your opponent may fold instantly if he was bluffing or semi-bluffing; (2) Your raise might get you a free card on the next round; (3) Your raise might enable you to steal the pot on a subsequent round if you catch a good card.

All in all, remember that calling is frequently a bad play. Any time you start to call, consider raising instead. You will be surprised how often raising is the correct decision.

Mistake 5. Folding When You Should Call. This mistake is not too common, but it can be critical when it is made. It is more often made by good players than bad ones. When a good player makes it, it is usually when all the cards are out and he is trying to save the last bet, frequently seen in draw and lowball games. A player who will fold a pat nine-low 40 percent of the time when he is bet into may be costing himself a lot of money. Those players who play that way against me are going to have a lot of trouble.

It is hard to save that last bet with a decent hand against someone who might take advantage of it. If you are wrong even once in 5 times, you can cost yourself a lot of money.

Mistake 6. Folding When You Should Raise. This doesn't come up too often. But one time it does arise is when you have the opportunity to try to bluff on the end against a tough player who may fold for one last bet. This is particularly effective if you check raise bluff a good player. However, your chances for success with this play must be higher than usual, as you are risking two bets to steal the pot.

Another instance of this mistake can occur when you have a drawing hand with one card to come but aren't getting good enough odds to call. A semi-bluff raise is a better play than folding if there is some chance that you will win the pot right there. This play comes up most often in hold `em when you have a straight draw' or third pair with an ace kicker. In fact, even if you are getting good enough odds to call, it is usually better to raise.

Mistake 7. Raising When You Should Call. This is also a rare error. There is, however, one situation in which it is frequently made. It occurs in multi-way pots when all the cards are out. Let's say the player to your right bets. You are fairly sure you have him beaten and figure that he will call your raise. However, if he reraises, you are probably beaten. Meanwhile, there are one or more players to your left who will probably overcall with a worse hand than yours if you just call. Raising would normally be a bad play in this instance, as calling should win two bets with no risk.

A less common example of this error occurs when you have a strong come hand in a multi-way pot. Most players will not raise a bettor to their right for fear of knocking other players out. With certain hands, it may not even be correct to raise a bettor to your left who gets a few callers. If he is a good player, he will reraise when you raise, which may be bad for you. However, this situation is not so clear cut. For instance, if you have a small straight-flush draw, you don't mind him knocking out other drawing hands.

Mistake 8. Raising When You Should Fold. This error is normally made only by expert players because they know there are many situations where the proper play is to raise or fold because calling is out of the question. However, sometimes fold, raise and call is a better ranking of potential plays than raise, fold, and call. In other words, even though raising is better than calling, folding is better still.

In a recent game, I raised when I should have folded. The game was seven-card stud. A player showing X X Qd 8c 5s bet and another with X X Kc 4s 3h raised. I re-raised with two small pair, but I should have folded, even though I thought I had the best hand. Raising was certainly better than calling, but folding was better still, as I had too many ways to lose. Many of the aggressive players in Vegas frequently make similar errors, but it is not usually that bad an error and can serve to enhance their "wild" image. It is seen most often on third street in seven-card stud. Many aggressive players will raise others behind them if no one has yet called and they have the high card showing. This is usually a bad play when they have two total blanks in the hole, but raising is certainly better than calling.

When determining how to play a hand, you can never be sure whether you may be making a mistake. When deciding whether to risk an error, you should realize that a mistake can do 1 of 2 things: cost you an extra bet or cost you the pot. Obviously, the second outcome is worse.

These are the costlier mistakes, the ones that the pros rarely make. When in doubt, it is much better to cost yourself a bet than to cost yourself the pot.

What this all comes down to is that the best way to play winning poker is to play relatively few hands, but play them aggressively.