Tough Turn call, easy river fold [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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JayKon

12-10-2004, 03:58 AM

UTG was pretty loose-passive, but seemed to raise with reasonable hands. The BB was loose and very passive.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

No need to get fancy here and 3-bets wouldn't do anything two bets wouldn't do.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

Given what I had seen UTG raise with, I was either slightly ahead, not trailing by much, or could setup for a bluff - hence the raise.

Turn: (6.16 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)

Wow, cool! Scrap the original plan to check behind ...

BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

Yikes! It took a bit but I decided I was against set/straight, set/set, or set/two-pair and I had 7, or 8 clean outs (/images/graemlins/diamond.gif's). I had stepped in it and decided it was just worth it to call two BB to see the river.

This is where I'm unsure. The BB could easilly have capped it and my hands would be tied - the odds were just barely there to hop the two bets. I didn't think he would, but then it was clear from the CR that he had a hand. I decided to call simply because of his overall passive nature and accepted that if I was wrong and missed, I was flushing another BB.

River: (15.16 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 17.16 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has Qs Qc (three of a kind, queens).
UTG has 9s 9h (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: BB wins 17.16 BB.

I actually thought UTG had the QQ ... oh well.

evain

12-10-2004, 04:03 AM

I fold before the flop. You could end up heads up with this guy and that spells trouble if he has AA KK QQ JJ AK AQ. You NEED some callers man and unless your table is way loose and full of cold callers (which it might have been) I fold.

David BB

12-10-2004, 04:06 AM

I'd fold pre-flop without even thinking twice. Otherwise you did well.

witeknite

12-10-2004, 12:49 PM

Another vote for fold PF. Turn call is good IMHO. If you are almost positive there's at least on set out there you have 8 outs. All /images/graemlins/diamond.gif's except 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Your odds with 8 outs is 4.8:1. When it comes back to you for two more you're getting 12:2 right there. 13:2 if you think BB will call. Even if BB capped it it would be the equivalant of calling 15:3. This makes it close, but still correct. Also, you have to figure on at least one of extra BB on the river to make the turn call more +EV.

WiteKnite

ErrantNight

12-10-2004, 02:07 PM

given your read preflop is close as KQs is at the bottom of the list of hands to cold-call with, here, but i might do it on this table. 3-betting i think is pretty clearly wrong.

i don't mind the flop raise, you wouldn't mind potentially clearing up some outs behind you.

the turn action sucks. BB is waking up and UTG is c/r the field. i think your description of UTG as a passive makes it even more likely that you're way behind, but your flush draw might still be good. it's really hard to get out here and a diamond on the river is probably pretty safe (with the exception of the 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ).

all of this aside... you're up against two passive opponents going crazy on the turn. you're behind, and you likely need to make up bets on the river, which they aren't likely to give you if your flush comes in, although it makes capping unlikely.

good that you got out on the river, a call would have been awful.