I dont know if i am thinking correctly !

Hi guys,

I am regular tourney player and usually play no limit tournaments. I understand many concepts about tournaments and the difference between ring games and tourneys. Lately i read an article about Bob Ciaffone that stated that you should never raise more than 1/3 of your stack preflop and if you were do go over that you would be committed post flop. So, Bob Ciaffone suggested that you instead of opening for more than 1/3 of your stack you should move all in preflop. I have been using this idea alot lately, but it seems that everytime i go all in preflop i get knocked out. Here is an example:

There are 3 tables remaining out of 175 players and the final two tables are in the money. I look around me and see one or two stacks that have less chips than i do and also a couple on the other two tables. I am currently holding an average stack of around T48000 and the blinds are T2000 - T4000 T500 ante. Folded around to a good player in mid position who limps, earlier he limped in early position with aces and tried a limp reraise, sort of tricky but mostly straightforward postflop. Anyway i pick up AQ offsuit on the buttn. Now what? well i dont think i can fold this hand and i dont think its correct to fold this hand. Calling is an option that i dont like, so if I raise my normal raise of 5 times the BB then i would raise it to T20000 and i would be committed if someone came over the top of me, T20000 is more than 1/3 of my stack so i pushed all in. Do you think this is right? Should i have called instead? The results are not important all i am worried about is the idea of moving all in preflop, do you think i should try to see the flop as cheaply as possible because i can certainly outplay my opponents postflop or do you think moving in with hands such as middle pairs, AQ, AK etc are better options.


I know its a long post, but if you've read this far, thankyou. All comments and answers are welcomed and greatly appreciated.


-MJ

I believe Bob Ciaffone advises that if opening for a normal pot sized raise means that the total size of your bet is 40% or more of your stack, then it is best to raise all-in.


If you are going to raise in the situation described, then I would say all-in is best. A 48k stack with those blinds/antes is not really a deep enough stack to outplay someone after the flop. A tournament with an average stack of this size is going to mean that luck will play a big part in how well you finish in the tournament. All you can do is play correctly for the stated blind-ante to stack ratio, and hope that you win the pots uncontested or win your confrontations. At this stage of a tournament, with this type of high structure, all your decisions will be made preflop concerning whether to enter the pot or fold. Once you have entered the pot, play is automatic if you are not already all-in. I'd probably shove all-in every time in this situation and take my chances.

The "general" rule of thumb is to raise 3X the BB when acting first. Sometimes I go 2x if I'm holding a big pocket pair, sometimes I go 4X if it's AK or AQ. However, with one limper already in I would never go 3X the BB. I would either make a raise of 4X the BB (T16,000) leaving me with 2/3 of my stack left or muck with an AQ.


With the fact that the player had once before limped with aces, I think I might muck this and wait for a better opportunity. If I did choose to play the hand I'd go 4X the BB. This pretty much guarantees that the blinds don't play unless they're holding strong and then you can go from there. If the limper makes an over-the-top play you can still get away from the hand and not be crippled. If he made a limp on a marginal hand hoping for lots of callers, you force him into a call of T12,000 to get T22,000, slighty less than 2 to 1 pot odds. He'd probably muck if he was not on a truly strong hand. (You neglected to say how much he had which is critical...if he has much more than you, I muck in a second or... move all-in if you really feel that strongly about playing this hand, which by the way, is a costly hand very often. If he is short stacked, he may be committed to calling. If he has a similar stack, I think he folds or was trapping you, then refer to first part of my answer.


Your holding 2nd nut no pair. You'd like to win this one without a flop. I don't like going all in when you could very well be behind or 50/50 at best. Make a steal raise of a substantial amount (4X) or let the hand go. Plus you don't yet know what the blinds may do. In most cases, with the player you described, I'd muck.


Keep playing hard!

There are T15000 in the pot when it gets to you and a pot-sized raise would be to T23000, so, yes, when you decide to raise I think you have to move in.


OTOH, I think that you can also make a case for calling here: Since you don't open the pot, your chances of taking it down are considerably reduced, but you have position and calling would allow you to take advantage of that after the flop. You also have a hand which plays very well against 2 or 3 opponents and you have the right stack size and correct odds to try to flop a pair.


If MP is as tricky as you said and might try to limp-reraise w/ a big-pair again (after all, a flat call from middle position by a good player looks somewhat suspicious), then calling is probably better than moving in; but in that case, you might even consider folding and wait for a better situation.


cu


Ignatius

depends what is your stack size compaired to the limper? Will your raise put him all in so that this might well be his last hand,if so by allmeans go for it.If your taking on a larger stack you'll just have to act on the info at hand.anyway it's an excellent question

if you limp in this position with a big stack behind you arent you inviting him to make an all in raise. you are basically saying i dont have a strong enough hand to go all in on. by raising two players he is showing a lot more strength and put a lot of pressure on the first limper to fold.

is this a reasonable fear?

tom c.

> if you limp in this position with a big stack behind arent you inviting him to make an all in raise?


That's hard to say w/o knowing the stacksizes and tendencies of the blinds, but if they have significantly more than MJ, they cannot push all-in without making an overbet of more than 3 times the pot and it would take a better hand than AQ to risk that many chips when they could see the flop virtually for free, so MJ would have an easy fold and would only lose T4000 on a hand which otherwise would most likely have busted him.


> by raising two players he is showing a lot more strength


True, but he will also need a lot of strenght to make this kind of move: According to MJ's read on the first limper, there's a higher than usual chance that he might go for a limp-reraise and a 2nd limper makes a steal even riskier. OTOH, if MJ still reads the blind for a steal, he will at least learn if the 1st limper has a real hand or not and can still decide to call if it's folded to him (esp. when the blind is one of the two smaller stacks and might make a desperation move, in which case he probably would have called anyway).


> is this a reasonable fear?


I, of course, have no way of knowing this as I haven't been there, and I guess there is a tradeoff involved in either action; but as MJ obviously fears the 1st limper more than the being run over by the blinds (which he didn't even mention in his post), I still think that he got the right hand, the right price, the right stack size and the right position to call and actually play a pot here.


cu


Ignatius