How should I play JJ without busting?

[Myst]

Just got out from the Super Thursday in 139th place. Im thinking I misplayed JJ here.

Blinds 100/200. Loose raiser miniraises it from MP. Folds to me on button and I have JJ. With a stack of 2700, I push, b/c 700 is already in the pot, and I dont wanna play JJ postflop (too many overcards).

Turns out BB, who was playing real tight, was waiting for me with AA. Original raiser folds, and says he would have called my all in if the BB didnt go in (he says he had AK).

Was I right to push? Would a raise to 1000 been better?

[Bigwig]

Nothing wrong at all with that push. You've got 13BB. You don't have the stack to be fooling around with reraising to 1000 and then folding to an all-in.

[damn_river]

what was original raisers stack? if he has a bigger stack than you, call. if he has smaller stack, raise all-in. If AA, KK, QQ are out there, so be it.

damnRiver

[Myst]

Original raiser had 3500. I had 2700.

I dont understand the logic of calling only if he has a bigger stack, and reraising all in if he has a smaller stack. Why wouldnt you want to reraise all in with both?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Original raiser had 3500. I had 2700.

I dont understand the logic of calling only if he has a bigger stack, and reraising all in if he has a smaller stack. Why wouldnt you want to reraise all in with both?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this scenario, it doesn't matter what size stack the original raiser has, this is a push preflop. There's no question about it.

[damn_river]

if he has a bigger stack and you call, then you see the flop (without all your chips at stake). If your are an over pair or hit trips, go all in. if they aren't you can still get out of the hand with chips.
reraise all-in against a smaller stack. you loose, you still have chips.

damnRiver

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
if he has a bigger stack and you call, then you see the flop (without all your chips at stake). If your are an over pair or hit trips, go all in. if they aren't you can still get out of the hand with chips.
reraise all-in against a smaller stack. you loose, you still have chips.

damnRiver

[/ QUOTE ]

This is fine earlier in the tournament. 13BB is near the point of desperation. It's time to push your edges. The pot is already 700, which is significant to a stack of 2700. Winning it right there is good enough, and if called, you've got an excellent chance of having the best hand.

[Brad F.]

Damn River, I think that we've found something that might help you in your MTT tournament problems. You can't keep calling and hoping to hit the flop well with 10-15 bb. That's not a large stack to just keep calling and hoping. You need to be aggressive in those situations. I want A-K to call in that situation, I like being ahead at a late state in a tournament like this. I agree with other posters when it doesn't matter what stack you're up against.

What if you're up against the chip leader, you just call his loose minimal raise, you call, and the board comes 9-9-3. He's first to act, he goes all-in? Now you've hit the flop that you want but the loose minimal raiser has the position and now you have another tough decision.

Best to get your money in the pot pre flop with J-J. Tough to have it up against A-A, but that RARELY will happen.

[Mike Gallo]

I would rather tap with Jacks then create a big pot with them as you alluded to. I see nothing wrong with this play, you just ran into a better hand.

[damn_river]

in my humble opinion, both are profitable plays. but which is more profitable?

in a tournement, if you loose all you chips, your out. the way i play it, it is tougher to loose all your chips.

in a situation like this, only BB with AA beats you when original raiser has smaller chip stack (eliminates 50% of those situations right there).

if you wait until the flop to go all-in against a larger stack, if high cards fall, you can still fold. Which is much better than having a 0% chance of winning the tourney when you are eliminated because high cards hit the flop and your opponent has ak.

damnRiver

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
in my humble opinion, both are profitable plays. but which is more profitable?

in a tournement, if you loose all you chips, your out. the way i play it, it is tougher to loose all your chips.

in a situation like this, only BB with AA beats you when original raiser has smaller chip stack (eliminates 50% of those situations right there).

if you wait until the flop to go all-in against a larger stack, if high cards fall, you can still fold. Which is much better than having a 0% chance of winning the tourney when you are eliminated because high cards hit the flop and your opponent has ak.

damnRiver

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, you have 13BB. Fears of going broke be damned. You're in serious trouble right now. Calling here is weak.

[damn_river]

so blindly put all your money in because you are desperate, rather than put some money in and get further information. jj is decent against ak pre flop. but jj is awsome against ak post plop with low cards, and shitty post flop against ak with high cards falling. why not pay a little and see whether it is a dominating hand or a dominated hand? then you live to see another hand, either way.

damnRiver

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in my humble opinion, both are profitable plays. but which is more profitable?

in a tournement, if you loose all you chips, your out. the way i play it, it is tougher to loose all your chips.

in a situation like this, only BB with AA beats you when original raiser has smaller chip stack (eliminates 50% of those situations right there).

if you wait until the flop to go all-in against a larger stack, if high cards fall, you can still fold. Which is much better than having a 0% chance of winning the tourney when you are eliminated because high cards hit the flop and your opponent has ak.

damnRiver

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, you have 13BB. Fears of going broke be damned. You're in serious trouble right now. Calling here is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]


Couldnt agree more, unless you have a read of the original raiser as the type that only opens with top 5 hands (VERY TIGHT) then this is an easy push.. folding is second best while calling is a VERY distant third and as the forum expression goes... its not close.

-CPJ

[zaxx19]

Wow... what if you just smooth call he has 77 and the flop comes 7-3-9?? You are gonna go broke correct?? Thats the point if you wanna constantly wait till there is a very small chance to bust in order to gamble by the time you get there you will have so few chips doubling up will leave you with a smallish stack anyway and you will be fishing for nuts again. Truth is this is a good way to frequently make the money but a horrible way to ever finish in the top 5 where ALL the money really is.

[damn_river]

honestly, with a flop like 973, and the opponent goes all-in, you should fold jj, right? i mean, what could he have?
you can't make that same fold if you are all in preflop.

damnRiver

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
honestly, with a flop like 973, and the opponent goes all-in, you should fold jj, right? i mean, what could he have?
you can't make that same fold if you are all in preflop.

damnRiver

[/ QUOTE ]

(Not to be harsh but..) This is the logic of a weak player, If you do not push JJ PF with this short a stack then you are giving odds to hands like 77 and 99 to try to hit against you which is not what you want to do. If you get all the money in PF you are forcing them to make a much bigger mistake then by calling and folding to some aggresion on a 9 high flop. Sure you cant get away from their set if the money was in PF but then again they probably wont even be given the opputunity to hit a set against you since you pushed them out of the pot. Dont play weak PF just because an opponent *could* suck out on you. This is faulty logic.

-CPJ

[zaxx19]

UH damnnnnn dya think If a half decent player flopped huge on a dry board he is just gonna move in?? Cmon your gonna Have too lead strongly with JJ here thereby pot commiting yourself OR He will make a medium bet you will raise and either be all in or pot commited. Im assuming JJ reraises here at least the minimum and of course YOU MUST DO THIS WITH JJ!!!.

[damn_river]

good point, you will probably weed out all of the weaker hands if you reraise all in. So who will be calling? AA will, as we saw. i'd rather loose $400 from $2700 and possibly get a better feel for my opponents hand, then be called by a hand in which i am a big underdog or sometimes in a coin toss with two high cards (and all-in).

damnRiver

[SirJoker]

I'm curious, how many people really think 10-15xBB is short stacked and desperate ? It seems to me that I personally would think that around 5xBB or less would be short stack to the point where I would be getting ready to pick a semi decent hand and push then hope for the best. Maybe my thought process is wrong here but if the blinds are 100/200 and say your up 700 in the 4th round, its like that where I play starting with 2k chips, I figured that if I had 2700 then I would prolly wait until at least 200/400 (2 more rounds) before I push, should I really be willing to push sooner ?

[Myst]

With all the PP SNGs I play, I dont think 13x BB is desperate. 5-6x BB is, but thats not why I made that play.

I pushed not because I was desperate, but because
a) There was 700 in the pot, representing a significant portion of my stack.
b) Original raiser was loose, and JJ was likely the best hand at the time.
c) I didnt want any other callers from the SB and BB, and the chances of them having a great hand to call an all in with a raiser and reraiser in front of them (AA-QQ) were low.

Unfortunately for me, C didnt pan out, but I think I made the right play.

[zaxx19]

It is pretty marginal I probably get busted here too but it is bc the AA in the BB thats just some crappy luck. It is true 10-15BB is hardly desperate in fact i regularly tell people the same thing here. You are really looking for a fold here like making a move with AK worst case scenario you got all yur money in with the 4th best hand in the game.... @ 3500 or more the entire thought process changes for me but you just dont have reraise wiggle room really here.

[damn_river]

time for a lot of people in here to give it up.

1. 700 is not a significant portion of your stack ($2700) if you have not invested in the pot and it is 400 to call.
2. you said it, BB or SB won't call unless they have AA, KK, QQ. small chance, but what are your chances when they have AA-QQ?
3. even if you felt original raiser was loose aggressive, by reraising him all-in, now he has invested a mini raise, he too is likely to fold a lower pair, and if he did play a hand like ak, your tournement life is in serious jeapordy.

damnRiver

[zaxx19]

26% is signicant there is no debate here to be honest not nit picking but....over 20% is significant. In fact 700 will allow you to try like 3 steals in the next few orbits.

[damn_river]

that would be significant if it were over 21% to call. but it was 400 to call (which is 14.8% of his stack) with 700 already in the pot.
damnRiver

[zaxx19]

Um no I think your are mistakening the words significant and worthwile. It would still be a significant part of his stack even if his opponent showed AA preflop.

[damn_river]

you are right, it is a worthwhile call of 400 when the pot is 700, 700 is not significant enough to justify an all-in, when it can be called with 400. very worthwhile call though.

damnRiver

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
BB or SB won't call unless they have AA, KK, QQ. small chance, but what are your chances when they have AA-QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

For one, you don't play tournament poker with short stacks (13.5BB is a short stack) worrying about whether the last couple players to act might have QQ, KK, or AA. The probability of that occurence (say 3 players) is 4%.

And you're wrong about their calling standards. With a mini-raiser, and then an all-in reraise, I suspect that 'most' players would still call with TT, AK, and many will also call 99 and AQ.

But that's not even the point. The value of the all-in isn't just what hands you might lose to if you're called, but the fact that x% of the time you won't be called, and win the 700 chips right there.

Let me also present this: The mini-raiser has 88. And many players WILL call this all-in bet. Then you've got a 4-1 chance to double up.

But instead, you smooth call. Now, you let the BB in cheap with his QTs.

Flop comes Q76. BB bets out. You're folding now, aren't you?

Say the BB folds. The original mini-raiser is going to bet into you with his 88 with only one overcard on the board, and you're folding here, too, aren't you?

You have to define YOUR hand to avoid allowing other weaker hands to take the pot from you. In this case, you're much too short stacked to make a proper raise to do this, without going all-in.

It's a clear all-in.


[/ QUOTE ]

[zaxx19]

Yeah what he said...but 13-14BB isnt all that short stacked man Ive ridden stacks like that late to top 5's probably 5 times to be honest.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah what he said...but 13-14BB isnt all that short stacked man Ive ridden stacks like that late to top 5's probably 5 times to be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of it in two separate contexts.

It's not short comparative to other stacks. I don't play at Party, but I see enough threads about hands to know that late in these MTT, 80% of the table has stacks like this. In that sense, I understand how it's not short.

But, it is short in terms of your ability to play 'regular' poker. For example, if UTG makes a standard raise, and a MP calls, and you have 66, you can't make a call for set value, as you could with a deeper stack (~30+BB). You're simply not getting proper odds to do that.

Or, say you have 98s in middle position, and three players limp in front of you. With a deep stack, you can limp and try to catch a big flop. It's really not worth it when you're this short, because the odds are not proper. So, even if you're not relatively short compared to other stacks, you must play short.

Frankly, anytime you're less than 30BB, you're not 'deep.' You don't have room for fancy plays. If you get involved in any raised pots, you've got a good chance of being all-in or fold on the flop. So, it's time to push the edges. JJ is an edge.

[zaxx19]

UH bigwig, seriously man under 30BB is like not short at all dude...You must bust out of soooo many tourneys for no reason and probably just destroy 1 out of 70 or something lol.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
UH bigwig, seriously man under 30BB is like not short at all dude...You must bust out of soooo many tourneys for no reason and probably just destroy 1 out of 70 or something lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're thinking about online play too much. Online, you're 'short' a lot. Next time you're watching a WPT event, or some such thing, take note of how deep the stacks are. It's not uncommon at these events to see final tables where the average stack has around 50BB or more.

Now, compare that to Party, where you start with 53.3BB, and are down to 30 within ten hands.

At the WSOP final table, after 8 days of play, Raymer and Williams started heads up play with somewhere around 170BB and 70BB respectively. Show me those kind of deep stacks on a PP MTT when it gets heads up. Or even a SNG.

[zaxx19]

YUP, sorry most of our discussion(although not even close to all) revolves around smaller buy in tourneys bc most players play them.