The Real World Championships

CardPlayer.com has the list of the final 18 finalists of the Bellagio $10,000. Compare the caliber of the players on that list with the top 18 of the WSOP and tell me which tournament is the real world championships. It's no contest, in my opinion.

While you have a point, it may not be fair. The Bellagio Tournaments are new, and because of that they are less likely to atract the tourist type player, but the hard core tournament player is still there. In time, their demographics will probably be more similar to the WSOP.

Seems to me that a true "world championship" will not occur until a system, based on either $$ winnings or points, is in place. Something where play is tracked over the span of a year, or season if you will. At the end of the season, there's a tournament consisting of the top XX money-winners or top XX point-gainers. This tournament would, with little room for argument, crown a true world champ. And if you wanna argue games, mix it up al a TOC or something.


Just read something today about the World Poker Tour (WPT) or something like that. Anyone know if this is the start to something along the lines of that which I touched on before?


I can just see it.. it'll be like NASCAR! T.J. = Dale, Hellmuth = Tony Stewart, etc etc!


And in my opinion, if millions of people are willing to watch cars go 'round n' round for 500 miles, there should be NO PROBLEM televising poker events!!


I can dream, can't I!?!


CHiP

I just saw Iron Chef USA last night, the American version (starring William Shatner) of the Japanese cult cooking show. Now, if poker were given that kind of presentation, it would actually have a chance of becoming a "spectator sport". If people are willing to watch two chefs compete using suprise "theme ingredients" like bell pepper, dunganesse crab, or octopus, people should be willing to watch poker players bluff for hundreds of thousands.


Players introduced like pro wrestlers, players interacting with crowds, a very entertainin host, funny color commentary, "3:16" placards in the audience, laser light shows, thrilling backround music, etc. The poker promoters must think showbiz. The poker tourney organizers should bring Hollywood people in, especially those who have worked for game shows like Jeopardy, Millionaire, Wheel of Fortune and even reality TV shows like Survivor, Big Brother, and Ossie Osbourne. If Ossie can do it, poker should be able to do it.

Look TOC had the right idea. They took people that won tournaments big and small. These people entered a multigame format tournament. This (in my mind) is closer to the true world champion than any one open tournament.


That said, why would any profesional poker player want to close the "world championship" to a select group--or have to compete in a Bellagio like field every year?


This years WSOP was GREAT for the pro's. No they did not make as much this year, but if the event continues the amatuers will surely come out in droves next year. Yes this makes it harder to win, but the price you get when you do is fantastic.


I don't play for a living. But if I did the last thing I would want to do is pony up 25K along with 100 equally skilled players and 15 inferior players just to crown myself "world champ."


I have not agreed with a number of Negreanu's posts lately regarding hand play, but I have agreed and understood why winning the 10K at the WSOP is not in his top 3 list of goals. Making the top 10 in player of the year is probably more prestigeous to "those in the know" than making the final table at the big one. No, the New York Times wont cover it, but that is the difference in playing for money v. playing for press.

Russ, you probably don't know me but I have played with you at the last two Atlarges. I don't like playing with you first of all, you pay attention at the table far too well. That being said it saddens me to see so many postings on both RGP and here, bashing both the Final players and an event that crowns the winner World Champ.


Many of these posters will never pony up the money to take a shot and challenge themselves in the arena that you just did. Think about it, this event has been played for 33 years and you finished 6th. Only 190 other players EVER have been in the same position you were at.


I look forward to seeing you in the pot limit game next year.


Scott Simon

Not nescessarily. That's because the out of towners that play the WSOP will have gone home a week prior to the start of the Bellagio $10,000 - in order to get on with their lives, and perhaps to fulfill their Immigration visa stay requirements. The ones that will remain are the tough LV locals like Freddie Deeb, John Hennigan, or Todd Brunson, along with knowledgeable hardcore foreigners like Bigler and Ulliot. In order for the Bellagio $10,000 to have the exact same demographics as the WSOP $10,000, the former has to attract the exact same number of participants as the latter and I doubt that will ever happen. The WSOP $10,000 will break a lot of the lesser bankrolled participants that would have gone to the Bellagio $10,000.

Come to think of it, the CardPlayer Player of the Year can determine the World Champion Tournament Player for a given year. In another words, Men Nguyen is the reigning champ while Philip Ivey and Layne Flack are running neck and neck to be the 2002 champ. Obviously, player of the year shows the long-term better than any individual event.

ANYBODY,


There's a big difference between playing against a field of 146 at the Bellagio compared to 631 players at Binions. When you have a lot of chips in play and you get stuck at a table between players that could put you all in. Even if you have the current average amount of chips. With less players it is easier to come out on top.


Lastly, the list of players at the Bellagio are all hard core regulars, so they all know how each other pretty well.


Good Luck


Mark

Yes, but to what extent does that merely show us who is entering the most tournaments ?


Andy.

Well, the guys that play the most tournaments are just gonna have to have the advantage. That's probably how it's always been, anyway, as far as the CP Player of the Year award goes.


If Andre Agassi joins more tennis tournaments than Pete Sampras, and wins more tournaments purely as a result of having done so, then good for him. It's not Agassi's fault Sampras got himself injured or decided to spend more time skiing or playing golf.


If both Layne Flack and Phil Ivey are close, and Ivey decides to focus more on ring games for the remainder of the year, thus giving Layne the chance to gain more points, that's his decision. And if Layne ends up winning Player of the Year simply by having bought in, so be it.


Tournament Player of the Year. The key word is "tournament". It would be impossible to determine who the live game of the year is.

I wonder what would happen if the Bellagio scheduled its 10,000 tourney a week or two prior to the Binion's "big one". Furthermore, what if they held the one table satellites and supersatellites (for the Bellagio 10K) across the street from Binion's at the Golden Nugget while the "smaller" bracelet events at the Horseshoe are going on.


Not only that, what if they began holding one table, super, and shootout satellites for the Bellagio 10K both at the Bellagio and at the Mirage beginning six months prior to the event.


To make matters worse for the Horseshoe, what if during the WSOP at the Horseshoe, the Mirage and the Bellagio jointly open a temporary poker room at one of the Golden Nugget conference rooms and spread live games there - with much better player and dealer treatment to boot?


As you think about the above scenarios, consider this next scenario. During the WPO in the Mississipi, the Bellagio (or Mirage) starts it's owntournament that matches the WPO event for event. In other words, if on January 4, the WPO held a 500 buy-in limit holdem event, on January 5, they held a 500 buy-in 7 stud event, on January 23, they held a 5,000 buy-in no-limit holdem event, the Bellagio would schedule the exact same events also but will have the advantage because they are holding theirs in Las Vegas, a place that is more attractive to visit for most people.

In terms of being well known as good tourney players, you could've grabbed 18 players at random out of the Bellagio starting field and beaten the final 18 at the WSOP this year. Now, that doesn't mean they're any better, but they are more well known.


While it's probably true that some relatively weak players made it deep in this year's main event, that's the nature of the game. Also, many of those so-called no-names who made the money this year are excellent players you've never heard of because they don't play many tournaments. Russell is a prime example. If he quit his job and played the circuit full-time, I'm sure you'd see his name on the list of point leaders in the Card Player rankings. However, he has a nice job, wife, and home that he prefers to life on the road. Some of those other unknowns are top European tourney pros who just haven't made a splash over here yet. And some were relatively lucky amateurs. Still, I'm sure they had some good NL tourney skills on their side to make it that deep, even if they also got very lucky.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

This is a good point. There was a time, a number of years ago, where I probably could have named every good player. In fact, I did this once in a 1988 Card Player article where the top (side game) players in the world were ranked.


Today it is just the opposite. There are many more good players (just like there are many more players) and a large number of them are just not well known. I believe that the same is true for the tournaments.