AQo v PFR - missed everything and raising

[Ralph Wiggum]

MP3 is TA pf, very aggressive postflop. MP3 may be a very good player. UTG+1 is LA pf, then normal postflop. Both are thinking players. Do I have a case of FPS?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds.

River: (8.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

[Grease]

Uggg...I'm lukewarm on the flop check/raise, but the turn bet is worse. They're not going anywhere, just give up. I think it's worth it to see the turn, as you have 2 backdoors and two big overs. The more I think about it, the more I like the check raise, as you could clean up some outs and get it HU, although you'll be out of position. The river is atrocious, you must fold this.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I was thinking that it was possible that this flop missed the PFR. With the nut BDFD, my plan was to c/r, get it HU, then take it down w/ a bet on the turn. Unfortunately UTG+1 called 2 cold. This led me to believe he either had the Jack or a flush draw. That being the reason I called the river bet.

So FPS it is!

[Jonny Melon]

Ralph:
The only hands you are ahead of (against a tight preflop player) on the flop are QK and ATs (maybe a few others, but not many). That flop missed you, and you aren't getting any better hands (or any hands that are a potential threat) to fold. You may just want to check-call the flop, and get aggressive on the turn if you improve, or check-fold the turn if you don't. Because you have 2 backdoor draws and overcards, a lot of cards can help you, and give you an opportunity for a strong semi-bluff if the right card (like a /images/graemlins/heart.gif) hits on the turn, along with the A/Q. I'd consider that route.

Jon

[alul]

This thread has the wrong name - it should be "AQo v PFR - missed everything and calling". I think the flop raise was fine, but the river call- awfull. If you were going to call why didn't you bet?

[Ralph Wiggum]

I'm not at all saying I played this right, cuz seems like no one likes it. But I thought maybe my thought process was interesting/absurd, and I'd like to see it corrected.

[ QUOTE ]
That flop missed you, and you aren't getting any better hands (or any hands that are a potential threat) to fold.

[/ QUOTE ] They don't know it missed me. Anyhoo, these weren't two typically bad players. I thought there was a legit chance to take this down. I thought there was a better chance the PFR had AK, AQ, AT or KQ than a PP. So that (in addition to me having the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif) is why I made the move.

[ QUOTE ]
Because you have 2 backdoor draws and overcards, a lot of cards can help you, and give you an opportunity for a strong semi-bluff if the right card (like a ) hits on the turn, along with the A/Q. I'd consider that route.


[/ QUOTE ] So you're saying, c/c the flop, then c/r the turn if I hit an A, Q, or /images/graemlins/heart.gif? I'm not sure if I like that. Why is that better?

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop raise was fine

[/ QUOTE ] Why? I don't know, seriously.

[ QUOTE ]
but the river call- awfull

[/ QUOTE ] awfully good?
Edit: I thought check/fold &amp; check/call were better options then bet/fold.

[kendal14]

I think the C/R is okay on the flop as well, as it might get you heads up with the PFR with two backdoor draws and two over cards. I would then lead out if improved on the turn (Q, A or heart) and check fold if a blank comes.

I really think the river is a no brainer fold here. UTG cold called on the flop for two bets, called a turn bet and wakes up on the river. You describe both players as being decent.

You later post saying you think UTG had a J or flush draw which is where i totally lose your reasoning for the call. Do you think he is the type of player that bets the river with a busted draw (if you have notes on this or Agg-R stats, this is possible) or more likely to bet with at least the J? He would have to bet with a busted flush draw 9 out of every 10 times to make this profitable. I fold this on the river without a questions. And I would have checked the turn as well unimproved.

[Joe Tall]

Muck or three-bet preflop. You either got enough or you don't.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[amulet]

calling raises with AQ is often incorrect. you missed the flop, your betting like you have the nuts, why? any pair beats you, and AK still is ahead. you missed i don't understand the aggression.

[Jonny Melon]

I was thinking betting out on the turn if an A/Q hits, because getting 3-bet would not be good . You could C/R a heart, and even if called, you could pick it up against unimproved overcards either right there or on the river, not to mention the equity if you spike your hand. If you don't improve on the turn, you can get away from it.

Of course, a lot of this depends on if the 3rd guy folds the flop or not, but I just wanted to throw out another potential strategy.

Jon

[alul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop raise was fine

[/ QUOTE ] Why? I don't know, seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO you had two options: raise or fold. If you decided to be aggressive and raise, you had to be consistent and lead the turn, it often makes hands like AK, AQ and sometimes small pocket pairs to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but the river call- awfull

[/ QUOTE ] awfully good?

Edit: I thought check/fold &amp; check/call were better options then bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably used the wrong word /images/graemlins/confused.gif but English is not my native language, sorry. I was trying to say that I did not like the river call /images/graemlins/smile.gif. What could you beat with your cards? Not even every bluff.