Limit vs. No Limit as a Skill Game.

[mkotich]

I've been thinking about this for a while, Everybody knows that Poker is a Skill Game, right? Or is it? I know that poker takes a lot of practice to master, and skill to succeed in, however I've recently begun to question that.

Maybe it's just mid to high limit poker that takes skill? Maybe it's just No Limit that takes skill, but I'm learning more and more that even if you play perfectly at a lower limit, limit money game, you can get destroyed even if you are a great player.

Now I don't consider myself great by any means. Some of my credentials are that I played 1/2NL online for a while and did pretty well, but as soon as I stepped up to 3/6Limit, I got crushed. Played a few NL Tournaments at the Luxor and placed just out of the money in some 40 man multi tables and have always made it to the final 15, but when I play 3/6 or 4/8 at the Orleans in a money game, I don't have a prayer.

Maybe I'm just a better NL player than Limit player (as scary as that is, seeing as how it's intimidating to think I can drop my whole bankroll in one hand) but are these games THAT different? I'm begining to think they are.

In No Limit you can usually judge the strength of an opponent pretty solidly by the way they bet, the amounts they like to bet in certain situations, body language, whatever. You can also use the uncapped level of betting to try and buy a pot, scare someone out, or just plain win more money.

I've found that in my Limit games raises get absolutely no respect it seems. I've tried watching the players to see how they bet, how they look when they've got something, try to pick up on tells, but it just doesn't seem to help. a $3 bet is a $3 bet. This guy could have the absolute nuts and it's still a $3 bet, hell, he could be trying to buy the pot with a $3 bet solely on the fact that it's the only bet he can make. Hell, I've lost a flopped boat to a higher runner runner boat after betting out on every turn of a card, maybe the $3 bets are just worth it to people. Is there something that I'm missing here? Or is Limit poker more of a casino game such as blackjack or pai gow?

I haven't gotten the chance to jump into a NL money game at any of the local casinos, but judging by my tournament play, the fact that I have infinately more patience at NL, and my performance in the past at the NL tables, I think I may actually have a chance at recouping my losses once I buy-in.

Any thoughts on the subject?

[AngryCola]

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I've found that in my Limit games raises get absolutely no respect it seems.

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I would like to be the first person in this thread to inform you that this is generally a good thing.

Judging from the tone of your post, my guess is you are bluffing too much.

[bdk3clash]

In terms of limit, I'm going to go ahead and guess that you have a small sample size and aren't very good.

[mkotich]

I would like to be the first person in this thread to inform you that this is generally a good thing.

Judging from the tone of your post, my guess is you are bluffing too much.

Generally I would agree with you about that being a good thing, maybe I just need to buy in with a bigger bankroll without being afraid to risk too much. I play pretty tight, and in games like this I'm forced to play pretty much premium hands. My problem is they keep getting cracked, and when I do drag a pot it's not enough to make up for the times I get taken.

Also I don't really bluff at all at these games more than once in a great while. I just think it's nice in NL to have more information to work with (and use to your advantage.)

[SomethingClever]

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but I'm learning more and more that even if you play perfectly at a lower limit, limit money game, you can get destroyed even if you are a great player.

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You should unlearn this.

You won't get destroyed in the long run. You'll destroy.

The long run is very, very long, though.

[mkotich]

In terms of limit, I'm going to go ahead and guess that you have a small sample size and aren't very good.

Well, yeah I guess my sample size isn't the greatest, just a couple months of B&M play. I guess I should give it a bit more time, but i'll probably just move to NL and see how that goes first. I wouldn't say I'm "not very good" maybe in the terms of limit I suppose..

[SomethingClever]

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I wouldn't say I'm "not very good" maybe in the terms of limit I suppose..

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Be careful... NL has a way of making average players think they're great.

Read some books and always evaluate your game.

[James282]

Welcome to the forum, it sounds like you don't know very much about poker yet. I hope you can find some answers here.
-James

[mkotich]

Welcome to the forum, it sounds like you don't know very much about poker yet. I hope you can find some answers here.

Well, I thought I did, heh. I've gone through a few books, put in a lot of time online (which I did great with, but it seems that B&M is a whole different game) but apparently there may be more for me to learn huh? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[BusterStacks]

Just ignore james282, he likes to ride the dick of well-respected posters. A true yes-man.

[Freakin]

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Just ignore james282, he likes to ride the dick of well-respected posters. A true yes-man.

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lol, that was a near-flawless insult, IMO.

Freakin

[zephed56]

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I play pretty tight, and in games like this I'm forced to play pretty much premium hands. My problem is they keep getting cracked, and when I do drag a pot it's not enough to make up for the times I get taken.

[/ QUOTE ]

If yer raises aren't getting respect, that usually means your opponents are playing "any two will do", which means you should be playing more hands, more multiway hands. You get a lot more profitable opportunities to limp in and see a flop, due to the size of the pot.

Pairs make a set or better about 1 out of 8 or so times. So you only need to be paid 7 small bets to break even. In loose passive games it is correct to limp early with small pairs.

Suited connectors and suited x-gappers are playable in these games too, although you might want to play them in a later position.

Small offsuit broadways lose a ton of value against a large field, avoid those. If they are suited and connected, and have mediocre high card value, like JTs, QTs, they are good hands.

It is not true that you tighten up against loosies, and loosen up against tighties. You tighten your steals and bluffs against loosies, but you loosen up your value bets.

Against tighties you should loosen up your stealing and bluffing, but stay pretty tight otherwise.

[BottlesOf]

I can think of a few flaws. Here are 2: 1, it's baseles and 2, James IS one of the well-respected posters.

[BottlesOf]

The subject is brought up every few weeks. Stick around, search the archives and post, and you'll see that you are quite wrong about low limit poker.

[James282]

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Just ignore james282, he likes to ride the dick of well-respected posters. A true yes-man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good one. Still sad about how I made you look ridiculous when you tried to use a stupid picture from the internet to justify some defenseless claim? Still hopelessly stuck in poker mediocrity? Just curious.
-James

[Mike Gallo]

Any thoughts on the subject?

Yes. Welcome aboard. This might seem like an attempt to flame you however one day you will thank me.

Your post makes no sense. Poster Sjthief09 and I played at a $2-$4 game one day for a few hours. I made $240 playing in one of those loose games nobody can beat. He probably only made $80. We joked the entire time about "nobody can beat these loose games" every time we dragged a monster pot. He bluffed successfully at a hand showed me the bluff on the downlow and said "nobody can bluff in these low limit games".

My point, I can crush most games up to $6-$12, after that, now it becomes a challenge.

[Mike Gallo]

In terms of limit, I'm going to go ahead and guess that you have a small sample size and aren't very good.

My first instinct almost made me post something eerily similiar. Great minds think alike Brad.

[Mike Gallo]

Just ignore james282, he likes to ride the dick of well-respected posters. A true yes-man.

I hope your kidding. James knows this game very well, and I consider him the real deal.

[Schneids]

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Just ignore james282, he likes to ride the dick of well-respected posters. A true yes-man.

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I am pretty sure that live or internet, of the tens of thousands of players I've played against, James ranks in the top 5 best I've ever come against in limit hold em.

[James282]

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Just ignore james282, he likes to ride the dick of well-respected posters. A true yes-man.

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lol, that was a near-flawless insult, IMO.

Freakin

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And a near-flawless played hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=1309381 &Forum)

Especially the river call. If people are going to mindlessly flame me and jump on the bandwagon of trollish posters who do so, don't expect me to take it lying down. Good luck getting out of the 2/4 playing the way you did in that hand, Freakin. Since Buster doesn't even have whatever little "courage" it takes to respond to my posts on an internet forum, he may not be the best role model for you.

And thanks to the posters who refuted the idiot. I appreciate the kind words.
-James

[bdk3clash]

Forum search pizownage!