Lost most of my stack on this one. Help Please!

[partygirluk]

Hi all,

I am really distraught at this one. This was in the 500 FPP satellite to the $215 on Stars. How should I have played it differently. Should I have bet the flop? Folded to the push on the turn? I was going for the C/R on the flop, but Villain hit a set on the turn, Quads on the river.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP2 (t1025)
MP3 (t1110)
CO (t1770)
Button (t1410)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t2140)</font>
BB (t380)
UTG (t1525)
UTG+1 (t3440)
<font color="#C00000">MP1 <font color="#A500AF">(villain)</font> (t1780)</font>

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 <font color="#A500AF">(villain)</font> raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t300</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 <font color="#A500AF">(villain)</font> calls t200.

Flop: (t650) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, villain checks.

Turn: (t650) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">villain raises to t1480</font>, Hero calls t1080.

River: (t3610) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t3610
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: t3610 (t3610), between Hero and villain.</font>

[aceragclubs]

What did he have? 66? I probably play it the same way as you except I with raise more preflop (I am more willing to push AK than most), or just call. If I just limped preflop I would go for the check raise, but if I had raised more preflop, I would just push on the flop. I'm pretty sure I would have lost all my chips here as well, looking at the board. You can't win 'em all, don't worry about it.

Aceragclubs

[37offsuit]

Bet the flop, for one.

[Sam T.]

What did you think he had when he raised the turn? I have a hard time laying down AK when I have TPTK, but it's hardly bulletproof.

A 5 seems pretty innocuous, but his re-raise says that has a made hand. Could be a str8, could be a set of 4s, 5s or 6s, but he can obviously beat your top pair. It's tough, but you gotta lay this down.

[Stoneii]

Bet the flop definitely, I try to find out where I am as early as possible.

[Bigwig]

With a stack the size of the one you have, you need to bet the flop and get an idea of where you're at. The pot is 625. A nice bet of 400 keeps you healthy if you have to fold, and keeps the fishiness out of your check.

If your opponent smoothcalls you, or reraises you, you can then act accordingly. I don't mind the reraise over a MP player at this point in the tourney. But it's still a hand you can get away from if you're not confident.

[0evg0]

I'm going to disagree. I play these things all the time, and they are the easiest way to get T$ by a long shot. Why? Because flop play is AWFUL. In this situation, I check the flop 8/10. With that turn, I can't tell you how many times I've seen QQ push here, or just as often, KT. I wouldn't advocate this strategy in actual, bigger tourneys, but in this event you have to play the players as much as the cards. Not much you could do really on this hand, about as innocuous a flop as possible.

[ThrillFactor]

I don't agree with going for the check-raise after the preflop raise. I don't think villian will bite here, it's a rather obvious play. Had you just called the pf raise, then that's a different story. But as played, bet the standard 2/3 pot and see what happens.

BTW, when you're raised all-in on the turn, you've gotta let it go. Sux, I know, but he either hit on the turn or set a trap for you on the flop.

[damn_river]

I like the idea of reraising all-in with ak pre-flop. Is there a reason why that is a bad idea?
I can see why you didn't bet the flop, but bet the flop! That free card may have given him the straight, trips, or two pair.
damnRiver

[slickpoppa]

First of all, raising all in with AK here is a bad idea because there is not enough money in the pot to justify it. Being really agressive is with AK is good when the pot is bigger in proportion to your stack, that way you have some "folding equity". In this situation, if the other guy folds to your all-in, you only increase your stack by less than 10%. But if he calls you will most likely be on the bad side of a coinflip.

Anyway, I think you the way you played it preflop was good. But checkraising the flop is too fancy for its own good. TPTK is not a monster hand. If you had bet the flop you probably would not have made your original post.

[fnord_too]

I bet this flop almost always unless the villain is hyper aggressive. One reason I bet it is that if I raised from the sb is that I am leading here with hands like TT and AQ, too. I think you have to apply pressure on flops like this if you put in the last raise pre flop and are out of position. If you missed the flop, and get raised you can drop the hand, not many players are capable of bluff raising a flop like this when the pre-flop aggressor bets out (unless the pre flop aggressor has been playing a lot of hands recently, then they may play back with nothing).

[fnord_too]

Oh, if I try to get tricky on the flop by checking I lose all my chips here too without a very good read.

[partygirluk]

My thinking was

"He raised preflop from earlyish, therefore he must have a high pocket of two high cards. He likely reraises preflop with KK or AA. Also, KK and AA are less likely given I have AK and a K is on the board. Therefore I am most likely ahead. He has raised preflop, and most of the time if I check he will take a stab at the pot, so I can C/R him to get some more dough. Hmm, he checks behind so he is probably scared of the King.

Well, no point in slowplaying till the end, I only have TPTK after all, lets knock out a bet. Hmm he has gone all in. Perhaps he has AK also and was trying to trap me on the flop. Maybe he is some fish with KQ trying to 'trap'. Perhaps he thinks that I am bluffing as his flop check showed weakness and is thus pushing with QQ~99. In any case, I don't think I'm behind, so call".

[zaxx19]

UH you think QQ just smooth calls after being reraised here?? Play online is bad not this bad usually. K10 calls this reraise?? I hope not. KQ even is an auto muck preflop there but yes there are some donkeys who would call I suppose. The real problem is not betting out on the flop. If the guy calls with a pair for set value I guess he is gonna break you here...thems the breaks. If you dont like risking getting broken by a pp dont reraise or reraise even more. Sounds ridiculous but unfortunately play is just THAT bad at times online.

[Deelah]

Bet the flop so he doesn´t get a free card. Whatever he does I think you should get as many chips as possible into this pot.

After your reraise preflop this check is just so weird in your opponents eyes. It´s better to bet out cause that looks weaker and he maybe tries to put a move on you with QQ-TT.

[Mike Gallo]

You should have bet the flop.

On the turn the villian told you I do not fear top pair.

[Brad F.]

The bottom line is this as I see it:

I'm somewhat of a rookie, but already I've gotten busted slow playing TPTK many times. If you bet anything but the minimum after the flop, he'd have to fold his massive underpair. If he calls you, then he didn't understand pot odds, or read your play as a steal. But at least you could complain about a bad beat instead of what happened. So bottom line, should've bet after the flop, it's a pretty good pot that I'm sure anyone would like to rake in with one pair.

Nez

[damn_river]

if called by pocket pair, you win 45%, it could be aq, aj, of which you win 70%, it could also be aa, kk, of which you take your loses. the opponent will also fold more than 1/2 the time.

is it really that bad?

damnRiver

[ZootMurph]

First and most important, bet the flop.

But since you don't do that, what do you put him on when he reraises all in on the turn? I'd put him on either pocket 5s (most likely), either a big King (AK, KQ, KJ or middle pocket pair and he thinks you missed the flop), a straight or K5s, 45s, 65s (very unlikely). A bluff seems unlikely at this point in the tournament for all his chips. If you'd bet the turn, he'd either have folded or called with a King. If he called, you could be pretty sure you were winning on the turn 5 and make the call. But, since you have no clue what he is playing with, your best bet is to not bet a large portion of your stack early in the tournament and fold.

Just understand not betting the flop makes this a very difficult situation.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
if called by pocket pair, you win 45%, it could be aq, aj, of which you win 70%, it could also be aa, kk, of which you take your loses. the opponent will also fold more than 1/2 the time.

is it really that bad?

damnRiver

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are in a loose enough game where people will call 40BB with AQ or AJ, then it probably is profitable. But with the pot so small at this point, i think you will only get called when you are a dog.

If there were more money in the pot, say 500, I would like the play.

[partygirluk]

He really turned over JJ, and MHIG.
I decided to lie in my initial response as I think this forum has a tendency to say "It was obvious he had you beat, so fold". OK, so the solution is not to post results. However, as a general rule people are only posting hands that they lost on. So a fair whack of Two Plus Two ers populate the MTT forum and advise accordingly.

In this hand, after his UTG raise call, and this flop, we are probably tied at worst, and he likely has 2 outs against us (3 if he has a worse King). If we bet the flop, we won't get any action from JJ/QQ/TT/AQ. So I think it is worth giving him a four percent chance to suck out, given that I have a high probability of C/R him out of an extra 300 or so chips on the flop.

The turn does not really change things. You really think he might have 87? Really? This is a 500 FPP tourney, and this is a MUST call in such events, given the action. I am disappointed in most of you.

[Sam T.]

I, for one (and it sounds like I'm about the only one), don't mind the check on the flop. What cards are out there that you are afraid of? If he's on a pocket pair, he's got two outs. The only other problem cards are the three that make his random two pair if he's sitting on Kx. Is this what people are nervous about? I undestand protecting your hand, and yes it is a risk, but you also need to build a stack.

Here's proof I wasn't just being a results merchant (what does that mean?): While I realize that a FPP tournament is different than a regular tournament, and I'm glad it worked out for you, I'm still not sure I like the call of his push.

[sahaguje]

It's not because you won the hand that it means you played it right. Even a very bad player understands that your preflop reraise, out of position, means you have a strong hand. You have shown great strenght preflop, there is 650 in the pot, you definitely have to bet the flop here. If you dont, you are giving up way too much ; not because you give a free card, but because your bets wont get much respect when you missed your flop. You should bet with AK, AQ, TT and many other hands.

By checking the flop after your reraise, you dont indicate weakness, but strenght, or maybe a mediocre hand (for that flop) that does not mind giving a free card, such as QQ. So if you get checkraised on turn by a lesser hand, there is a good chance your opponent would have been bad enough to call a 400 flop bet. Betting the flop and checking the turn is much better ; there you really represent a good hand that missed the flop, and can therefore induce a bluff. And if you decide to check the flop, why dont you also check the turn ? There is a good chance your opponent will bet, not only with JJ, but with much lesser hands.

To sum up, I dont like your play at all. You have to "integrate" your game. Checking the flop when you have reraised preflop, are heads'up, and first to act, is bad poker, except if you are against a really excellent player and need to be very tricky. And if you check, betting the turn then calling an all-in raise is even worse. If you think your opponent will bluff for sure, check.

By the way, asking for help, then insulting the posters who have tried to help you is not very good ethics. Among the "weaktight results merchants", there are excellent players, who took time to think about your hand, and give their comments. They dont need to be taught a lesson by a 500 FPP tourney player who won a hand by playing poorly. You are not forced to give the result when you ask for help on a hand. But giving a false result, then making fun of the posters who were "wrong", is just silly.

That being said, I wish you good luck.

sahaguje.

[slickpoppa]

Sam the reason why you bet the flop is because some people (especially in FPP tournaments) will call the flop with anything. However, on the turn they tend to tighten up, unless of course they picked up their crap two pair. You must profit from their curiosity.

[zaxx19]

Um, Is losing all your chips in a battle for a nothing pot ~55-57% of the time smart?? iunno, depends on how horrible you are at playing MTT with a normal stack. There seems to be some on this board who really only feel cumfy with a big stack and cant imagine playing in a tourney with less than 40XBB, if thats you probably you need to take any 42%+ shot you can to double up. How can you assume an AJ or AQ who only raised a small bit preflop in EP would call your "double up or bust" preflop reraise as often as AA KK QQ JJ or AKs?? That just specious and incorrect. It is funny how people assume AA KK cant be out there bc you have one of each while the probabilty IS lower just the fact that there is a EP raise probably evens out the probabililty of a huge hand being in there.

In fact I know it is just like common knowledge you HAVE TO reraise here but Im not sure I like the reraise here. Anybody ahead QQ AKs JJ KK AA probably reraises you here and puts yu to a pretty tough decision (tough for me not tough for alot of players here I suppose) and with it only being raised 200 the pot is laying him good odds too call with set value to break you since he can pretty much put you on AA JJ or AK correct??(I think KK or QQ needs to raise more than this here) The checkraise would be much more effective if you smoothcalled infact if the villain had KQ or KJ (ep raise with these yikes) it could break him. The point is you got greedy by throwing a raise you knew would get called out there and thats why a pp called and had a chance to break you. Either raise to 450+ or smooth call and control the pot size with this hand that is easily read and easily beat in situations like these.

[KJS]

First rule of checkraising: Be sure your opponent will bet. What did you put them on that would bet?

KJS