Routine flop raise?

[Demana]

Game
Good $4/8 live ring game
9 players

Reads
All are loose/passive except for UTG2 who is aggressive.

The play
Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Preflop: UTG calls, UTG1 <font color="red">raises</font>, All call.

Flop: T93 rainbow <font color="blue">(9 players)</font>
Pot: (18 SB)

Hero checks, BB <font color="red">bets</font>, all call to Hero who <font color="red">raises</font>, UTG2 folds, MP1 folds, rest call.

Turn: 2 completing rainbow <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
Pot: (34 SB)

Checked around

River: Q <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
Pot: (17 BB)

Hero <font color="red">bets</font>, BB calls, UTG1 calls, CO calls

Final pot: (21 BB)

Given the passive nature of the table and my check/raise on the flop, if I don't bet this river, no one else does either.

[runa]

PF you have a marginal hand and bad position but since everyone called its probably ok.

Flop: I like it.
You have the gutshot + overs and low backdoor str8 draw for about 7.5 outs or so. I think CR a passive table accompishes a few things: strengthens your overcard outs, builds up your draw, and disguises your hand.

Turn: I'm surprised this got checked through but its perfect for you.

River: Easy bet. The pot is big and given the turn action and table description you definitely don't want this checked through.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is SB with KJo

Preflop: UTG calls, UTG1 raises,

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I think CR a passive table accompishes a few things: strengthens your overcard outs,

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't really a factor if no one is going to fold for 1 more bet after putting one in already. Given the looseness, hitting one of your overcards could easily help someone else on this board.

b

[joker122]

why would you want to put in 2 bets on this flop if it's not going to eliminate any players?

[runa]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG2 folds, MP1 folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, but they did fold so it was worth it.

I can maybe see the J helping someone out, but the K not likely.

[Demana]

Builds the pot so I can call a bet on the turn with an inside straight draw to the nut straight. There are no flushes to be worried about and even the K will probably win the pot for me.

EDIT: Also potentially buys me a free card (and in fact, did buy me one)

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I can maybe see the J helping someone out, but the K not likely

[/ QUOTE ]

It sure helps QJ. Which is a common coldcalled hand.

You have 9 callers to the flop. God knows with what. A K could help someone get 2 pair with Kxs if they're really loose on the coldcall. I wouldn't fear it, but know that it's possible.

However, on the flop with 8 opponents in, this is a c/r for value even if you only have 3 outs. (given maybe a 1 gutshot out is taken) If a K is good if it hits, it's even better.

b

[runa]

Good point, but I still think that they count as half outs each, devalued accordingly as SSH has them. This still brings us to 3 outs for overs, 4 for your gutshot, and maybe .5 for your bottom backdoor str8. I think my point was that a CR is good because it either knocks people out, which is good, or you get value if they call, which is also good.

2 goods = really good. I like it.

[Demana]

No way I fold this on this table. I know them very well now and they are just as likely to have 22 as AA.

I'm in the small blind and getting 1.5:18 odds preflop.

True, if a king or jack hits, I'm behind, but on this table, with those odds, it just seems wrong to fold since I can let go if I miss the flop and not blink an eye.

Now if it had been a decent player with the raise or the whole table doesn't call, it is auto fold.

Do you think you would this hand on a "No fold'em hold'em" table in this spot, knowing everyone will be in the hand? Does position influence the reasoning?

[Rico Suave]

Demana:

[ QUOTE ]
Builds the pot so I can call a bet on the turn with an inside straight draw to the nut straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of points.
1. You will undoubtedly have odds to call with your gutshot on the turn without raising the flop.
2. Raising / bloating the pot so that you have correct odds to continue is not sound strategy. Had there only been 3 opponents, do you still think c/r the flop and trapping callers for multiple bets with a 4 out hand so that you can draw to the turn with your gutshot is a good thing?

Your flop raise is not bad only because you have 4 outs to the nuts and 8 opponents thereby making it a value raise, albeit a high variance raise.

--Rico

[CanKid]

Hi Demana,

[ QUOTE ]
True, if a king or jack hits, I'm behind, but on this table, with those odds, it just seems wrong to fold

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? I'd feel better with 54os than KJos here.

[ QUOTE ]
since I can let go if I miss the flop and not blink an eye.

[/ QUOTE ]

You did miss the flop, then you check raised 999999 players.

[ QUOTE ]
There are no flushes to be worried about and even the K will probably win the pot for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said a K or J and you're behind, what's changed?



I don't like the flop check raise, the only turn card you can feel good about is a Q, and based on preflop action I'd wonder how many live Qs there are. The c/r isn't going to eliminate anybody or clean up any outs, I really don't understand why you did it. River bet is fine.

Here's how the hand will play out most the time. You check raise 9 guys, you miss on the turn, someone bets, you gotta call 1-2 bets now, you miss the river, and you fold - or you hit a K, and AK makes you pay 2 for a showdown, and you lose.

Horrible hand imo.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I know them very well now and they are just as likely to have 22 as AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

Both hands, and all pairs for that matter are getting better odds than KJo.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think you would this hand on a "No fold'em hold'em" table in this spot,

[/ QUOTE ]

For a raise, no. Would you play it in a capped 8-way game of the same nature? What types of hands would you be seeing this flop with? Even if it was 2 bets multiway (4-5+) most of the time. Offsuit connected, 1 or 2 gapped facecards, for the most part, are out.

[ QUOTE ]
Does position influence the reasoning?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if i can get in for a bet or less. For a raise, im folding KJo going into a multiway pot. Look at the dynamics of how KJo plays in a multiway pot. It's not great.

I love playing KJo. It's one of my favorite hands. But i wouldn't play it here. I know these 2 facecards look pretty with what you're seeing most of the table play, but it's just not that good in this situation.

Suited, this is an easy call.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You did miss the flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

No he didn't. He has a gutshot plus 2 overcards. Most likely only 1 will be good if he hits.

[ QUOTE ]
then you check raised 999999 players

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop c/r is fine. Ever hear of a value raise with a draw? Postflop i think he played it well.

b

[CanKid]

[ QUOTE ]
No he didn't. He has a gutshot plus 2 overcards. Most likely only 1 will be good if he hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

So ya.. he has a gutshot

[ QUOTE ]
The flop c/r is fine. Ever hear of a value raise with a draw? Postflop i think he played it well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard of all sorts of raises. Raising a gutshot from first position is chip spewing here imo.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising a gutshot from first position is chip spewing here imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's base it off 3 outs for the gutshot and 2 for the overcards. 5 outs. You're 4 -1 right now, with 8 opponents. Every bet that goes in you're making money on. Do you understand that? It's not spewing chips, it's printing money. Even with 1 card to come he's about 8-1 = Even Money. So then it's just a matter of variance.

It's also fun to win big pots and 'look' like a maniac in doing so.

b

[Jonny Melon]

That flop C/R is not good. Your overcards are likely not clean, and all of them give redraws, so you are C/Ring the field with maybe 7 (and as few as 4) outs. You need to clean up your outs, not ram n jam weak draws. By raising the flop, you now have created a pot so big that you can't clean up your overs on the turn, and you can't protect your hand if a J or K hits on the turn.

Jon

[Demana]

Ok, I see what you're saying. UTG or BB could have 3-bet behind me and then I'd be kicking myself for playing a marginal hand, out of position, and having already called a raise. I got too caught up in the family pot moment.

[Demana]

[ QUOTE ]
Demana:

[ QUOTE ]
Builds the pot so I can call a bet on the turn with an inside straight draw to the nut straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

2. Raising / bloating the pot so that you have correct odds to continue is not sound strategy.

--Rico

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that is definitely NOT a reason to raise.

[Jonny Melon]

Bernie:
The reason I disagree with this assessment is that he can't protect his hand on the turn if he spikes one of his overcards. This would be a much better ram and jam with, say, 78, where it is extremely clear that pairing your cards isn't going to pick up the pot, (i.e. you have no lesser hand that needs protection), and your outs are stronger.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I see what you're saying. UTG or BB could have 3-bet behind me and then I'd be kicking myself for playing a marginal hand, out of position, and having already called a raise. I got too caught up in the family pot moment.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, kind of. I was saying i don't like KJo in a multiway pot for multiple (2+) bets. Whether i think there's going to be a raise behind me or not.

The main part is does KJo play well in a multiway pot? Not really, but with position and for a single bet (sneak in cheaply) it's very doable. I mean, you wouldn't cold call this on the button knowing you won't be reraised behind you, would you? Some might, i wouldn't.

There comes a point where if preflop it's usually played for 2 bets 8 ways, it's the same as 8 ways capped. I pretty much use the same starters for both.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I disagree with this assessment is that he can't protect his hand on the turn if he spikes one of his overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you planning on protecting your hand on the turn, knocking people out, with the bettor on your left? If you catch a K, betting out could easily freeze him up to call unless he has a very strong hand to which you'd really want those players in to pay off your gutshot if you hit. It could look to most like you just hit a str8 on the turn with an openender.

If he's likely betting a draw himself and won't raise the turn.

b