Min Raise after flop

[Strollen]

I see this situation at Party $10 SNGs quite often

Level 2 15/30 blinds
I make a 3xBB with a couple of callers with a premium hand like AcQc. I am called by the button and raised to 6xBB (180) by the small or big blind, early callers fold and button and I call. Pot is 600 TC

Flop is Jd 9d 7c. If the SB comes out with something like a pot size bet, I'll fold, unless I know the SB is a bluffer. However what I often see is a min bet of 30. At 20-1 pot odds. My runner runner nuts straight or nuts flush or even trip Qs or trip Aces, makes it correct for me to call as does the button.

Turn is 8s. SB bets 30 again.

What do I do?

Say I call 30 and the river is Qs. Do I bet if SBs checks or min raises again?

[Irieguy]

Yes, this is a very common scenario, and a common source of leaks. You have to reverse-engineer the logic on this one, because each individual decision seems fine... but the end result is that you've put in 240 chips and you have no pair, no draw against multiple opponents on the turn. That's clearly bad.

The way to avoid this situation is to dictate better the flow of the hand from the beginning. This is only level 2, and you only have AQ. It's not time to be spending 1/3 of your chips in a multi-way pot. Since there are already a couple of limpers, a 3xBB raise is only going to build a huge multi-way pot. You don't want that. You'd be better off deciding, based on your opponents, whether you would rather show serious strength and make a big preflop raise... or just play a small multiway pot and hope to hit a monster. So a limp, or an initial overbet-raise of the pot is probably a better option in this scenario. For me, it depends on the table. If the table is particularly weak and I don't fear a push... I'll just raise big and take it down. But more frequently, the value in this type of hand is just to limp and play a small multiway pot with a big multiway hand.

The problem with ABC play in the early levels is that you can waste too many chips when the blinds don't matter. You're better off looking for cheap opportunities to win a big pot, or safe opportunities to win a small pot. If you're not going to fold every hand for the first 3 levels (which is better than most strategies), you need to be thrift-conscious, deceptive, and have position.

This hand is a nice example of +chipEV/-$EV play.

I hope some of that made sense.

Irieguy

[Strollen]

Ok I understand conceptually that AQs could be +EV for chips but minus EV for finishing in the money.

However, I am not sure that limping solves the problem.

Let's say that I limp with my AcQc.
Small blind raises to 90 big blind folds and everybody else calls.

Now the pot is T480 and same flop and once again SB bets 30.
The pot is 16-1 odds and if I get a runner runner I could win a lot.

It's much easier fold for me on the turn assuming another 30 bet cause I figure one of the limper has their flush, trips or straight. But maybe SB has Axd or KdQd nobody has made crap and a pair or queens or ace with a good kicker will take down the pot.

I guess my real question is what does a min bet into a big pot by a preflop raiser mean?
A. I didn't really hit my flop but I still think I have best hand, but I am not confident.
B. I've got a good drawing hand and want to increase the pot a bit so people won't fold when I hit and bet it big.
C. I've got what I think is nuts say trip jacks in this example and I want to suck out

[ChrisV]

My money is on option B. However the real answer is that this is not a bet that a rational player makes. Since this player is obviously irrational, it's hard to predict what he is doing or why he is doing it. He may also have AK, and coming from a limit background feel like he has to bet out - or something.

In your second example the flop call is correct, and you should fold on the turn because most of your outs are probably dirty. However if you call on the turn it's not going to be a big deal. Because it's 30 chips it doesn't particularly matter what you do. Even if you're drawing dead, you lost 30 chips. Not really something to lose sleep over. You just have to be prepared to fold to a big bet on the river. If the Q rivers, you can bet a small amount if checked to - say 100, as long as you're sure that some LAG in the pot isn't going to raise you off your hand. Checking is fine too if you aren't sure.

[Shorty35]

I would add a "D", which is "I have the possibility of drawing to something and I like the size of this pot, but its a long shot - so I will make an irrational size bet so noone will know what to make of me".

I usually respond to bets like this (less than 10% of a reasonable size pot) as if it were a check.

[Strollen]

[ QUOTE ]
My money is on option B. However the real answer is that this is not a bet that a rational player makes. Since this player is obviously irrational, it's hard to predict what he is doing or why he is doing it. He may also have AK, and coming from a limit background feel like he has to bet out - or something.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Chris I see a lot of min betting into big pots, (probably 5-10 hands a tourney, I am not in most) that I was thinking it some super secret strategy that great SNG players knew about.

The easier answer is it just Party people playing normally. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Merlyn22]

[ QUOTE ]
I see this situation at Party $10 SNGs quite often

Level 2 15/30 blinds
I make a 3xBB with a couple of callers with a premium hand like AcQc. I am called by the button and raised to 6xBB (180) by the small or big blind, early callers fold and button and I call. Pot is 600 TC

Flop is Jd 9d 7c. If the SB comes out with something like a pot size bet, I'll fold, unless I know the SB is a bluffer. However what I often see is a min bet of 30. At 20-1 pot odds. My runner runner nuts straight or nuts flush or even trip Qs or trip Aces, makes it correct for me to call as does the button.

Turn is 8s. SB bets 30 again.

What do I do?

Say I call 30 and the river is Qs. Do I bet if SBs checks or min raises again?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this situation, I may raise the flop bet just because it is so weak, however, with the button behind me, I may just call it to see what the button does. If the button calls behind me, then he's probably got nothing. If the bettor bets out the minimum again on the turn, I'm raising almost every time. It doesn't even have to be a huge raise. Many times a raise to just 200-250 will steal this pot in this situation. The 8 on the turn is a scare card for anybody without a ten in this situation, as is any diamond that comes up. I think this is a very good bluffing opportunity. Unless I know this person likes to bet like this to induce bluffing, raising is my usual option. Noone ever said you had to have the best hand to win.