What's the main reason you're not playing one limit higher?

[beachbum]

Maybe this should go in the psychology forum. Should make for interesting results. I realize that for most of you more than one answer applies, just pick the best one. (sorry if this has caused bad memories/flashbacks from college multiple choice exams)

[CinnamonWind]

It's all the swings. I have no doubt I could beat the Party 15-30 for 2/100, but I just couldn't stand to lose 3k on a downswing, even though I have a 20k BR. It would just make me a lil' too crazy I think.

[beachbum]

I plan to get to Party 15/30, just need to put in the hands at each level along the way and obviously earn a good rate at each one along the way. This is so I make sure to get enough experience, improve along the way, and more slowly accustom myself to the size of the swings.

[Equal]

[ QUOTE ]
It's all the swings. I have no doubt I could beat the Party 15-30 for 2/100, but I just couldn't stand to lose 3k on a downswing, even though I have a 20k BR. It would just make me a lil' too crazy I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. No waitaminute, I should say someth... naw, "lol" says it all.

[Danenania]

I'm playing 10/20 6-max now and though I theoretically have a large enough bankroll for 15/30, I want a pretty large cushion before I move up so I'm comfortable. I probably won't make the move until I have at least 600 BB's for it in my BR.

[Trix]

Havent played much more than 20K hands at any limit and with the swings in 6max, I´d like a bit more before moving up. I´m also making too many mistakes that I realize right after, need to stop that first.

[DMBFan23]

I'm a micro player primarily, 1/2, but with a little 2/4 here and there. I'd like to beat 1/2 for 300 BBs before I move up, because I hear it's good to learn to wade through these tighter games. it has been so far.

[J.R.]

http://www.hhc-lewis.co.uk/images/Digital%20Photography/StellaArtois.jpg

[colgin]

POTD.

Stella Artois is good. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Joe Tall]

I'm with JR:

http://www.thepartymart.net/content_images/beer_newcastle_small.jpg

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I'm killing the 2/4 and beating the 3/6 and Party. I suck at short-handed, and have neither the BR or the balls to play 15/30.

Where's my check box?

[Bob T.]

Complacency.

My goal for so long, was to become a winning 5-10 player, that once I got there I just tried to beat that game. One day, I realized that my bankroll was well over 500 BBs for 10-20, and so I started taking shots there. I was really comfortable at 5-10, so I didn't really make an effort to move up.

Eventually, I made it a requirement that I need to play at least 10% of my hands each week at 10-20, and also at 5-10 shorthanded. Now I probably play more like 25% of my hands at those other limits, and when they get to be my regular game, then I will start taking shots at the 10-20 short, and the 15-30 full.

[ode]

I don't think I have any good reason.

I now pack my bag and go enjoy month without poker at Hong Kong and Thailand, and then I'll swap to next limit with
sufficient bankroll ->

/ode

[bisonbison]

Rent.

[aas]

The second and the fifth options go hand in hand, I think.

I plan on moving up to 3/6, but not any time soon. Way too many flaws that I know about in my game, let alone the ones that I don't know.

Bank roll is not the issue . Not enough experience and skill is the real reason.

[wuwei]

I choose other. The main reason I don't play higher is because I suck.

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm killing the 2/4 and beating the 3/6 and Party. I suck at short-handed, and have neither the BR or the balls to play 15/30.

[/ QUOTE ]

milo,

Your reasoning came closest to my own (at least my own rationalization). The fact is that I am a bit of a wimp. I should be more consistently tackling some form of $5/10 given my bankroll and (self-perceived) level of ability. Back when I was playing even smaller limits I would take shots when my bankroll hit somewhere between 150-200 BB. I knew this was too little but I was prepared to step down quicklyif needs be. I also knew that I could afford to lose my entire bankroll and, frankly, it did not seem like all that much money anyway. Now my bankroll is of a size that it does seem (and actually is ) real money so I have become more protective of it even though I am adequately bankrolled for $5/10. This is totally psychological since I haven't withdrawn dime one from my bankroll (other than for taxes) and don't foresee doing so anytime soon. Since my bankroll does not supplement my primary income, I don't use it for leisure spending, and my primary purpose of keeping it is to try to grow it for bigger games, it strikes me that I should at least take more shots at higher limits. But I have always had a risk averse nature. Oh well. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[steamboatin]

Devil's Advocate, If you are good enough to play at the next level, why is your bankroll to small? With that kind of skill, wouldn't your bankroll grow quickly?

I have yet to meet a poker player that didn't believe he was a really good player. Biggest fish in the sea and if you talk to him, it's bad beats and the other players don't play right, etc. Rarely do you ever hear someone admit to having holes in his game.

I wonder how many that checked the first box are in denial about their true abilities?

I know I am guilty of that at times.

[CinnamonWind]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's all the swings. I have no doubt I could beat the Party 15-30 for 2/100, but I just couldn't stand to lose 3k on a downswing, even though I have a 20k BR. It would just make me a lil' too crazy I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. No waitaminute, I should say someth... naw, "lol" says it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

What were you going to say?

[cnfuzzd]

some of us live out of our bankrolls, and due to not wanting to be bums (see thread in OOT) we choose to have a big enough bankroll both to play, and pay rent. See bison above.

skill doesnt insulate one from downswings. A 500 BB roll at 3/6 is only a 300BB roll at 5/10. Moving up that one level could mean i instantly go on a 200BB hot streak. Or conversely, a 200BB slide. and then rent is due. Then im broke and have to go back to selling my body. See above.

that having been said, i am the greatest poker player in the world, on pcp.

peace

john nickle

[mrpurple]

[ QUOTE ]
Devil's Advocate, If you are good enough to play at the next level, why is your bankroll to small? With that kind of skill, wouldn't your bankroll grow quickly?

I have yet to meet a poker player that didn't believe he was a really good player. Biggest fish in the sea and if you talk to him, it's bad beats and the other players don't play right, etc. Rarely do you ever hear someone admit to having holes in his game.

I wonder how many that checked the first box are in denial about their true abilities?

I know I am guilty of that at times.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well some of are using a fair portion of our profits for living expenses.

[pokerjo22]

[ QUOTE ]
Then im broke and have to go back to selling my body.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that where the name 'nickle' came from?

[steamboatin]

But wouldn't that be in line with my question? If your skills were better, you would earn more and your bankroll would continue to grow. Regardless of the level that you play, it would seem to me that if you have the skills to play at the next level, your bankroll would get there.

Let me try if from the other side because i might not be making my point clearly. When someone says, I don't play at x level because my bankroll isn't big enough, I assume if he won a little money in a tourney or a lottery scratch off ticket, so he could withstand the normal variance, he could be a winning player at x level.

So not just you, but most of the players that checked the first box, if they have the skills to play at a higher level, wouldn't their bankroll grow quickly and allow them to play at that level?

Like if your bankroll is constant is it safe to quess that your skill level is constant?

[cnfuzzd]

Take your pick:

i will be the bigger person here and not make the comment that the term "nickle" was a nickname affectionatly given to me by one of our local soroties a few years ago when they were lovoingly referecing the conversation towards my five inches.













FIVE INCHES FROM THE FLOOR!!!!!!


(zing)


or, conversely, this response.


Jo, you know its free for you anytime baby.



whichever you decide.


peace

john "nickle"

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
that having been said, i am the greatest poker player in the world, on pcp.


[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, anyone can play great poker on pcp. Where's the challenge in that.

[cnfuzzd]

no dude, i am on pcp, and the greatest poker player in the world. Get it straight before i have to send this dancing 6-ft purple grasshopper after you.


HIJACK COMPLETE!!!!!!


peace

john nickle

[witeknite]

I think he's basically asking, "Are you not playing at a higher level because you think your BR is to low, or is your BR big enough, but you are aren't confident in your play." There are people that have more than enough of a bank roll to move up, but feel they need to play more at a given level. There are also people that think they can beat the next level, but understand that a bad enough downswing could break them. If not break them, force the player to move back down a level to rebuild, thus slowing the person's progress.

I definitly fall into that later category. With my current BR, if I were to play 3/6, a significant downswing could not be shrugged off.

As for your question of why isn't the players BR higher, the answer is time. I am not comfortable sticking any of my savings into playing poker. Consquently, I was forced to start with a VERY meager BR and build, build, build. Baring another significant downswing (already had one) or my wife squeezing the kid out early, I should be at 3/6 by the first of the year.

WiteKnite

[steamboatin]

Exactly, your bankroll is getting you there. If I am understanding you correctly, you are not saying, I just need a bigger bankroll. You are saying by the time my bankroll gets me there, I will be ready.

I am asking this for my own information to make sure I understand what people mean when they say, I need a bigger bankroll.

[cnfuzzd]

personally, i think i could beat the 15-30 for at least 1/BB 100, and probably more after a few thousand hands of experience. However, not having the 15 grand or so i would want to feel comfortable, ie not become homeless, means i stay at my current level. where my bankroll is sufficient to overcome whatever that bitch variance throws at me.

peace

john nickle

[helpmeout]

I tried $10/$20 6max it was tough, I was up $2k, damn I am good(if only).

A couple of days later just above even.

Losing 1/5th of your BR is a couple of days is too much for me.

The jump in skill and $$$ makes moving up pretty tough when you get to a decent level.

[BottlesOf]

For people playing 5/10 mostly, like myself. Is the next level 10/20 or 15/30? There are two very different answers for each.

There's also some 8/16 out there....

[witeknite]

Nope, I'm saying I just need a bigger bank roll. If someone handed me $3000 to play poker with, I'd hit 5/10 with gusto. Now I will add the caveat that, if I were to lose half that $3000, and I wasn't SURE that is was plain-o variance, I would drop down a level and take it from there.

I feel that, to learn you must do. Playing k's and k's of hands at .5/1 doesn't push your play like playing at a higher limit.

Funny thing is, I feel like I should thank you and some of the others that have been playing in the OIC. I started at Royal Vegas on their 10 promo bucks. By the time I got through the nickel/dime games, a bunch of you guys were making the .5/1 and 1/2 tables much tougher then they should have been. All of you definitly put me in some interesting situations. Heck, I didn't even know I was playing with that many 2+2er's until three days ago. Now that I'm finally at Party, I'm playing with a /images/graemlins/grin.gif on my face because of how easy it is.

WiteKnite

[cjromero]

Even though I have a comfortable bankroll for 3/6 (about 3K), I am staying at 2/4 for the time being for multiple reasons.

1. I took advantage of the Dell laptop deals in late October/early November and bought a new Inspiron 8600. That took away a good chunk of my then bankroll, plus I started a new database on Pokertracker (and started mining) in mid-November when the laptop arrived. I started off with the new computer on a bad run of cards (undoubtedly mixed with some bad play) and was down about $300 after 6,000 hands. I have been on a nice run the last 1,800 hands, and am now about $500 in the black (or green on PT), so my current BB/100 for the 7,800 hands is 1.5 or so. Still not good enough, but much better than it was when I started with the new database a month or so ago. I plan on getting in 20,000 or so hands at 2/4 and then re-evaluating.

2. I am trying to make as much poker income as possible over the next two months to pay for property taxes and for a January trip to Vegas, and I have a good comfort zone at 2/4 that allows me to 3-4 table. I wouldn't have that same comfort level when I first went to 3/6, so I think I can achieve my short-term income goals better by staying at 2/4.

[Kevin]

I might be the poster child for staying at a limit too long 160,000 hands at 3/6. I have about 28,000 hands in 5/10 but find myself defaulting to the 3/6 because, well, it seems pretty predictable +/-, and a bad or sideways run is 1-3% of the roll so it is much easier to stomach.

About a month ago, while watching a 15/30 game, I got the gumption and sat down. 36 hands got QQ 2x, JJ, AK 2x, flopped 2 pair out of the big blind(unraised with 45s)and 1010. 1010 was the only winner - convinced that any turn check raise was someone making a play - as I had heard that they were very aggressive with these plays at this limit. Getting turned checkraised and calling a river bet (ugh) 4 times cost $360. So, After 36 hands, I was down $700+ like 24 big bets. It looks fantastic in poker traker, my -70bb/100 win rate at the Party 15. Money, I hardly knew you.

So, just when I thought that I was starting to get the nerve, I realized just how much I still had to learn. I put my hand on the hot stove and that burn hurt.

So, I will continue to admire you all in the bigger games and sit in the 3/6 where getting beat up on by bkd3clash, bison, and all of you other guys will be made up by the ace-rags, coldcallers etc.

Kevin

[beachbum]

Are you offering me a beer? Why yes, I'll have one.

[mcozzy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I were to lose half that $3000, and I wasn't SURE that is was plain-o variance, I would drop down a level and take it from there

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I experienced on the smaller games. I was beating the $1/2 for 3+BB/100. I moved up to $2/4 and, for the first couple of weeks, I was beating it at a pretty good rate.

Then I started getting creamed. It was probably only a 150 BB downswing. I should have been prepared for it, but I didn't think it would happen so soon upon moving up.

I thought that it was mostly due to variance; but I figured some of it is probably due to poor plays. I thought it's probably safest to fix any holes in my game at $1/2 before moving back up. So, after I re-read some books and study some hands I'll move back up.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
personally, i think i could beat the 15-30 for at least 1/BB 100, and probably more after a few thousand hands of experience. However, not having the 15 grand or so i would want to feel comfortable, ie not become homeless, means i stay at my current level. where my bankroll is sufficient to overcome whatever that bitch variance throws at me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with my opponent in the Dec. challenge on this one... I'm pretty sure that I could beat the 15/30 for a slight profit, but if you're only beating the game at 1 BB/100 the swings will be CRAZY... of course your SD will probably be about the same, but if you're only expected to be up say, 100 BB after 10k hands, then being down 150-200 BB is certainly within the realm of reasonable probabilty after a few days or a week. If I can beat the game for 2+ BB/100 then being behind at the end of 10k hands, or for each week, is a very, very unlikely scenario. sure it happens, but with the bigger WR its probably more than 2 SD's below avg, so I"m looking at being ahead 98% of the time or so...so in that way its also a big psychological thing. At the limits I'm playing now, I feel almost 100% confident that I'll be ahead at the end of the week.

On that note, I took my first try at 15/30 last nite, and WOW... bad players, but I didn't really know how to play optimally in response to their increadible aggression. Anyways, I dropped $1200 quicker than I could imagine, and realized right away that I"m not quite ready to be able to hit a 150+ BB swing at that level. After the drop I still have over 400BB for that game, but now I"m thinking that I'll probably need around 20k to feel more comfortable with the swings in that game.

Like others have said, I also need to take money out of the BR frequently for living expenses, so when you do that the BR doesn't build up as quick as it should. And also when you're doing that playing with a 300BB roll in a new game is WAY too risky (at least for my liking).

[cnfuzzd]

reporting our numbers tomorrow. I will tell you this. the first week is probably yours, as i had to spend a few days out of town. But that is only the first week.


peace


john nickle

[pfkaok]

Yeah, i started off really strong, but actually have barely played the past few days... been datamining at 15/30 and 5/10 6 max, and only played a little 2 table of 15/30.

Also I got Harrington on holdem yesterday, and thats been pretty distracting, as I'm almost finished with it already. So its cutting into my hands played.

However, i might start playing some 6max, so that could increase my hands/hr.

[toman8r]

I have the BR for 10/20, but I play 3/6 because I am really bad at poker.

[witeknite]

I've already been through a massive downswing. 150BB at 2/4. Things have turned around now though. It's rapidly ticking back up. It was my first real bad run, and it coincided with me moving up limits. Now things seen to be back on track. I still see the same bad plays that made me money at the lower limits. The BB are just worth more.

Call with odds, raise with equity, and don't play weak tight.

WiteKnite

[mrpurple]

The thing keeping my bankroll constant is profit taking. Actually its not constant. But, its not sufficent for me to comfortably move up a level. If I stopped taking profit for a short time, I could move up. but, right now my situation is such that I need the`extra money and am not prepared to grow my roll at a faster rate.


In the best of all possible worlds, I'd put some things aside let the bankroll grow and ride out the growing pains of jumping levels for increased profits. But, right now I just need the cash.

[Mike Gallo]

Dude,

Try Corsendonk or Duvel.

I prefer Chimay Ale.

Awesome picture.

I have a sister who lives in Belgium and Stella is the domestic beer.

I always knew I liked you JR.

[IndieMatty]

I think this is the perfect thread to say, I am currently 2 tabling.

15/30 and 25NL.

[Rooster71]

[ QUOTE ]
Then im broke and have to go back to selling my body.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried that, $2 a trick didn't add much to my bankroll. I can make more playing $.01/$.02 than I could get selling my body.

[cnfuzzd]

and because thats a guy in a leotard with his nutsack showing. Lets not hide the truth....


(sorry. part of the reason i did that whole "challenge" thing sort of revolves around moments like these. Its especially good since you are a minimalist sort of poster. So, i see your post, nod my head, then reread is. Then notice that dudes nutsack. Good times.)



peace

john nickle

[cnfuzzd]

FROM THE FLOOR BABY!!!!


peace


john nickle

[Bob T.]

Ok, then. Mortgage.

[bobbyi]

I currently don't watch televised poker, but that is a contest for which I would tune in.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Moving up that one level could mean i instantly go on a 200BB hot streak. Or conversely, a 200BB slide.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not if you were to take a shot with the intent of dropping back down if you lost 100BB.

[ThinkQuick]

I don't think I'm really contributing anything new...

I play 3-6/4-8. I don't play the 10-20 games because it would really suck to have a losing session at 10-20 for me.

The 10-20 games here happen at 1 or 2 tables, most weekends, and it's just the same people that play 3-6 and 4-8 all the other times - so it's defintiely beatable, just not.. stomachable?

Although, saying all this kinda goes against what I think of poker as a statistical investment. I dunno tho I also play for fun and losing 500bucks really would suck.
Good question beachbum

[beachbum]

[ QUOTE ]
Good question beachbum

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks dude. This response has been a really pleasant surprise. My reasoning behing this topic is that there are so many great players on these forums, I was thinking why are these guys/girls still playing 1/2, 2/4, 3/6 etc? I mean what's the main reason they're not beating a bigger game? I actually PM'd one poster here about it, but as I've been a more active participant here I see many posters here who definitely seem like they can beat a bigger game.

It's true that many of us overestimate our poker abilities, you know, think we're better than we are. But many of us don't give ourselves enough credit. Yes if we go play a higher game, we might get our ass handed to us. But you know what, this makes us better players (if it doesn't financially criple us). I think if we have a plan to get to a certain level, set goals along the way (financial, performance, and experience oriented goals) at each step, there's no reason any of us here can't play at that next level up.