Basic SNG Question - Did I play this correctly?

[aeakos]

My question is, should I have called the RR, folded and waited to move up in money or is this the place to make a stand? My 600 PFR is a good chunk of change.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1565)
MP (t3860)
Button (t2770)
SB (t610)
BB (t1195)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t600</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t1000</font>, SB folds, BB folds, Hero folds, Button calls t0.

Final Pot: t1900

Not quite sure why it says the pot is t1900, I'd think it would be t3430 or is this normal for UB hands to show up like this?

[pshreck]

The question is, how many hands is this guy making that reraise with other than AA or KK. It really shouldnt be many. I probably fold it. If the guy had 2k or less I would probably push.

[ChrisV]

Whaaat? Are you from some parallel dimension?

This hand should have been pushed straightaway. Having failed to do it once, you now have another opportunity.

[Irieguy]

Really, there's 3 possible ways to go with this hand. I'll put them in order, but somebody may argue it... it's close:

1. Open-push
2. Go all-in right from the beginning
3. Just shove all of your chips in there

Irieguy

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
Really, there's 3 possible ways to go with this hand. I'll put them in order, but somebody may argue it... it's close:

1. Open-push
2. Go all-in right from the beginning
3. Just shove all of your chips in there

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, I would never open raise like this and even garner information to be able to fold. I would just push.

However, from watching SNGs and situations similar to this... when the big stack opens for a decent raise, and the 2nd big stack (who is close to guaranteed money if he plays smartly) min-raises on top.... I feel the worst hand he can hold is QQ, with KK or AA much more likely.

This situation is in fact not all that common in my opinion. The 2nd stack usually shows a respect for the big stack, and certainly doesnt ever put in raises like this without the most premium of hands, hence the situation doesn't come up a lot.

[texasrattlers]

I agree with the open push. But Hero is 3rd stack and re-raiser is 2nd stack who has Hero covered and will be in 3rd if he loses. So, he could have any PP here or AK, so there is no way I fold to his re-raise.

[Strollen]

Maybe I'm missing something but by simply calling you are getting almost 5-1 odds. (400 to win 1900)
AKs 12.2% vs AA 87.8
AKs 34.2 vs KK 65.8%
AKs 46% vs QQ 54% (roughly the same for any pair)
AKs 52.5 vs AKo 47.5

So except for AA you are a getting excellent pot odds for calling or even pushing. If you do call I'd say you call or push on practically any reasonable flop.





So unless you this guy has played uber-tight. You should call or probably better push.

[aeakos]

Thanks for all the help so far guys...keep it coming.

[unfrgvn]

I think numbers 1 and 3 should be reversed....

[ QUOTE ]
Really, there's 3 possible ways to go with this hand. I'll put them in order, but somebody may argue it... it's close:

1. Open-push
2. Go all-in right from the beginning
3. Just shove all of your chips in there

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

[Sidekick]

I don't like the open with 3x BB in this situation. Betting 600 here is almost 40% of your chip stack. At this stage of a SnG when I would have to use over 33% of my stack to open for a 3x BB bet then I'm pushing.

Since you did open for 3x BB and got reraised then I'm pushing all in here at this point. Unless button has been incredibly tight through this tourney then you are most likely a coin flip here or if you are lucky have button dominated on a hand like AQs.

You didn't include the buy in for this hand and this can affect what you expect out of your opponents dramatically.

For me this is a hand where I have a chance to double up and then I have a very good chance of finishing ITM. If I bust out here, well that is the way it goes. But with that stack in this situation I am trying to give myself a much bigger stack to work with.

The Pot is t1900 because you have SB in for 100, BB in for 200, you in for 600 and villain in for 1000. 100 + 200 + 600 + 1000 = 1900.

[unfrgvn]

Upon further review..
I agree with everybody that I would have just pushed pre flop, and eliminated the decision. I also agree with pshrek that the min reraise is almost always a big pocket pair and most likely aces. It is certainly not a raise designed to get you to fold, unless he knows that you know that a min reraise is likely aces, in which case he might make that raise to get you to think he has aces.... and so on.
Having said that, if you are going to lay this down to a reraise, why not just make your standard open raise 2.5 x the BB? It will save you a few chips over time and once the blinds are this big it is just as good as a 3 x BB raise.

[zephyr]

What was your rational for not pushing preflop? By making a 3xBB raise you turn a very simple situation into a potential difficult one.

When your opponent reraises, you again have a very simple situation....push. Worse would be if you were called and the flop was void of an A or K.

Only my opinion,

Zephyr

[morgan180]

I think you'd have to be exceptionally sure that they have AA /KK not to push that reraise. In other words, refer to Irieguy's three ways to play this one.

I'm sure someone could ICM it but I am sure it says the same thing.

[Allinlife]

how does stopngo look in this situation look guys? he might fold J's or lower on Q high flops

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
how does stopngo look in this situation look guys? he might fold J's or lower on Q high flops

[/ QUOTE ]

There's too much money in the pot for a stop and go here. You've already raised pre-flop and you'll be calling 2/3 of your chips. The post-flop call for him will be about 500 chips into a 2000+ pot. It's a no-brainer for any 2 cards.

The best move clearly was to push pre-flop with less than 8x BB. Having not done that, you have to call the reraise. You'll see AQ or AJ or KQ here often enough.

[aeakos]

[ QUOTE ]
What was your rational for not pushing preflop? By making a 3xBB raise you turn a very simple situation into a potential difficult one.

When your opponent reraises, you again have a very simple situation....push. Worse would be if you were called and the flop was void of an A or K.

Only my opinion,

Zephyr

[/ QUOTE ]

I overlooked what % this 3xBB was of my stack. A simple mistake.

Should I post the results now or wait longer?

[aeakos]

[ QUOTE ]

You didn't include the buy in for this hand and this can affect what you expect out of your opponents dramatically.


[/ QUOTE ]

This was a $1+.10 SNG, I am testing the waters at UB for SNG play as I do not have a large enough bankroll yet to player at higher levels nor do I think I am ready.

My particular read on this opponent (I should have included this in the opening) was VP$IP 38%, 2.8 Coldcall, 11.5% PFR. I had seen him play a wide variety of hands such as any A-rag, K9o, 86o, pfr early pos 88, and 98s.

[Sidekick]

Even though I had said earlier it was an automatic push for me (and it still would be...), with this read on this opponent I would be drooling in anticipation of having him dominated with his Ax or Kx hand.

An opponent who plays like that is about your ideal setup in this situation. You should also expect a great deal of players who fit this profile at this limit.

There is nothing wrong with playing the smaller limits to get a feel for things and to build your bankroll. Very smart attitude if you have limited funds.

[ChrisV]

While I agree that the reraise smells a bit of AA or KK, the counterargument is that those are both very unlikely hands given you have AK. Since those hands are unlikely the odds are pretty good that there's an alternative explanation (he was too lazy/excited to move the slider, he's just an idiot, etc).

Also as I believe someone said earlier in the thread, looking at chip EV (which I think is a good guide to decisions here - a big stack is going to be a lot more useful than 965 chips), pushing against KK here, rather than folding, results in an average gain of about 200 chips. Even against AA your loss is only about 550 chips, while every time you are against AK or QQ and down, you gain 650 chips (and that's without even talking about dominated hands).

As regards the "if you are going to lay this down to a reraise...", well first of all I'm not. But even if I was SURE this raise meant AA and I could fold, that's a very very uncommon situation. Mostly the result of raising small will be to give opponents the impression they can make you fold, so that they'll reraise with small pairs and so forth. Or you may price the BB in for a call and he'll outflop you.

[aeakos]

Thanks so much for all the insight, I have learned what I believe to be the correct play for next time.

Without further a-do, here is the hand results:

Tournament all-in showdown -- players show:

aeakos shows A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
tbeggs shows J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.


Flop (board: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif):

Turn (board: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif):

River (board: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6s K/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif):

Showdown:

aeakos has A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif :a pair of kings.
tbeggs has J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif three jacks.

[Strollen]

Well sets happen /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If you had 100 of these show downs AKs vs an underpair you are going to win these 47 times and the pair 53. But you are going to be 2-1 or more favorite against everybody else.

Factor in the numerous times times nobody is going to call your all-in and well this is no brainer. He could have called with 72o and won 30% of the time.

[Lmn55d]

This is a very easy initial push. Just want to point out that if the villain showed you KK, you should call. You are around a 2:1 dog to KK and are getting around 2.5:1 (you're gonna have to put in your last 1000 to win 2500). This is assuming villain will call the extra 600 if you went all in here...which he will. In other words, the only reason you should fold here is if villain will *ONLY* make this reraise with specifically AA.

[aeakos]

Thanks, that is kind of what I needed someone to confirm for me. I didn't really think he had As or Ks, and without his 12% of hitting trips, I most likely would have won this hand. I really wanted to present this and get some technical feedback on how I should have played it. I now realize a push was almost certainly correct, but as someone else pointed out, this is the 2nd best alternative.

[Lmn55d]

yea, when your stack is as short as yours is (less than 10BB), you usually should push all in if you're gonna raise at all. You're usually gonna commit yourself anyway, especially with a hand like AK (as you see in my math you can't fold after you make that raise). This puts the maximum pressure on the blinds and other players to fold or make what would probably be an incorrect call. It also might make them fold a hand like 22 that is a coinflip with you. You don't want to see a flop out of position with more than a third of your stack already in the pot with AK. The only time I might not push all in here is with a hand like AA or KK where I want to squeeze some value out of it. AK likes to be all in preflop though so it can see all 5 cards.