Hypothetical Questions

[andyfox]

Two players have an agreement wherein, if it gets head up between the two of them, they will only bet top pair or better. Otherwise, they will check it down.

General question: Is this cheating? Unethical?

Specific question: One of the players raises first in with J /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif. The other player 3-bets from the small blind with K /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Big blind folds and the original raiser calls. Head-up, their agreement is now in force.

Flop is 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Big blind bets.

How bad would a call be from the other player?

[jtr]

OK, I'll bite.

A call would be incredibly bad. I mean, the plausible 3-betting hands are presumably AKo and AKs, AA, KK, and QQ. If the preflop 3-bettor now bets out on the flop, assuming he's keeping to the agreement, he's saying it wasn't a hand like AK (and even if it was many of those hands will include a heart). So basically the JJ player is being told "I have a bigger PP than yours" by someone he presumably trusts. He's got 2 outs to a jack and he has to dodge a potential flush draw. Clear fold.

Edit: OK, thinking about it more I guess JJ and TT could also be 3-betting hands in some games. So we might give the JJ player a small chance of being up against a pair of tens. Even then the decent chance of the opponent holding a heart makes a fold very very reasonable.

[joeboe2001]

You almost got me. BB folded--he can't bet!

[Equal]

You can't fool me either, everyone knows you don't bury survivors!

[haakee]

General answer: I think it's ethical as long as they don't jam before it's heads up in order to get heads-up.

Specific answer: In a 9-handed game if both are reasonable players otherwise I think the call is awful. You essentially hope the SB has red jacks and doesn't flush, or that you trip up and he doesn't hit his flush.

[Michael Davis]

Not enough info. It totally depends where first in is. If first in is the button he has to call. If first in is UTG this is a terrible call.

-Michael

[jokerthief]

[ QUOTE ]
General question: Is this cheating? Unethical?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. How could this possibly be cheating or unethical if both parties agree to the deal before hand? Am I missing something here, what exactly is it that you're questioning?

[Michael Davis]

It's unethical because they could have forced other players out of the pot by raising each other and then they check it down, a courtesy they will not extend to others.

Even if their raising is legitimate and not collusive, the fact that they forced others out of the pot by doing it means they have to play the rest of the hand in a fair manner.

-Michael

[andyfox]

No, a typo. Small blind bet. Sorry.

[jtr]

So was this a trick question, Andy, and if so when are you going to spring the solution that makes my response look dumb? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif