equity question from 7SFAP

[jomatty]

i was rereading my copy of ray zees book and the section on calling with a big pair behind multiple limpers if you cant knock anyone out. while this makes some sence to me similar to calling with AK out of the big blind so you can check raise the field and clear everyone out i wonder if in this stud situation you are not giving up too much equity by just calling. if you think you have a far superior hand that will win much more than its share it seems that while reraising is not automatic that it may be a mistake for calling to be the default play. i dont play as much stud as i would like to as it seems everyone wants to play holdem these days so i was wondering what others thought about this.
i have never read anything by zee that i disagree with so i am interested if i should make the play he describes my default action in these situations.
ty
matty

[bobman0330]

If you were against a field of strong players who would fold correctly if they were getting incorrect odds, then it would be correct to value-raise, say a pair of Qs in late position. However, if your opponents will make calls on the later streets with or without odds, then you gain more by adopting a waiting attitude. This is correct for several reasons:
1) If your hand is still strong on 4th or 5th, you can bet then and extract bad calls.
2) If you had raised the aforementioned queens on 3rd, your opponents might be correct to call with something like (Ac 5x) Kc on 3rd and again on 4th for the size of the pot. No mistakes means less EV for you.
3) in a multiway pot, your hand might go south quickly. If things get ugly, you might be glad to get out on 4th or 5th with little of your money in the pot. In other words, your edge may be smaller than you might hope/expect.

Note that this is a balancing test. If your hand is so good, or is a strong multiway hand, maybe (Qc Qs) Jc, your value in raising is higher, and maybe you can extract incorrect calls in a large pot by making a big hand.

This is mostly a restatement of the principles in 7CS4AP, but maybe it helps?

[Andy B]

Most of the time when you start with a pair, you're going to finish with one or two pair. Aces-up is good enough to win even in multi-way pots often enough that it is profitable. Jacks-up probably isn't enough. I think that in this spot, you should raise with Aces and probably Kings, but probably not Jacks. With Queens, it probably doesn't make that much difference, but I'd lean towards limping.

When the pots are multi-way, draws are frequently better than pairsy hands.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

the difference between hold'em and stud is that in stud your hand values change so drastically compared to your opponents' boards, and your equity with say JJ isn't so high in stud as it is in hold'em. does that mean it's incorrect to raise with the best hand in stud on the 3rd street? of course not, but by 5th street in a bloated pot your hand can be in bad shape quick and its you who end up chasing others.

[jomatty]

i guess K's and sometimes Q's are where i wonder if you are not better off raising. I agree with hands like JJ its definetly a call.
ty for the good responces
matty