QJo from the blinds... 2nd pair and flush draw...

[GlemZurg]

How would you have played this hand? I'm thinking that perhaps I should have bet the flop and the river? I checked the river expecting MP2 to bet so I could check/raise.

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks,
Justin

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: GlemZurg is SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, GlemZurg completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
GlemZurg checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, GlemZurg calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (4 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">GlemZurg bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">GlemZurg 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls.

River: (14 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
GlemZurg checks, BB checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 14 BB

[ucfryan]

Looks good, better luck next time.

EDIT: didn't read the part about the river c/r, why on earth would you do that?

[Entity]

What's the purpose of a river checkraise?

Edit: And it better not be, "checkraising is fun."

Hint: look at your position relative to the likely river bettor.

Rob

[PokerBob]

c/r the flop regardless of what hits and lead the turn if you aren't 3-bet on the flop.

[GlemZurg]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks good, better luck next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

As it happens I won this pot.

[ QUOTE ]
didn't read the part about the river c/r, why on earth would you do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. Just thought MP2 was going to bet again and that I had the best hand. Forgot that me 3-betting the turn took the initiative from him.

Course without your comment my thinking would not have cleared up on that.

Justin

[GlemZurg]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the purpose of a river checkraise?

Edit: And it better not be, "checkraising is fun."

Hint: look at your position relative to the likely river bettor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just inexperience. Can you clarify for me what your relative position point means?

Justin

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Lol. Just thought MP2 was going to bet again and that I had the best hand. Forgot that me 3-betting the turn took the initiative from him.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'll make my comment a bit clearer. Is BB going to call two cold on the river here very often? Given the riskiness of a checkraise attempt, and the frequency with which you'll only net one more bet from checkraising vs. betting, do you see why I'd prefer a bet much more than a checkraise?

Rob

[ucfryan]

Man, I didn't even notice that you had 2 pair earlier, my brain is so fried for studying for my finals. I'll be more observant next time /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[GlemZurg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lol. Just thought MP2 was going to bet again and that I had the best hand. Forgot that me 3-betting the turn took the initiative from him.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'll make my comment a bit clearer. Is BB going to call two cold on the river here very often? Given the riskiness of a checkraise attempt, and the frequency with which you'll only net one more bet from checkraising vs. betting, do you see why I'd prefer a bet much more than a checkraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes total sense. Check raising would be to milk one more bet from MP2 but give up the bet from BB where betting would be more likely to get a bet from the BB and from MP2 (if he were going to bet) anyway. Same extra bet but better chance by just betting out.

[Redd]

No flop bet for this hand, then? It seems that if all four players call, it's a value bet. If some fold, Hero might clean up his queen (and might even scare off a weak ace fearing the flush?). What makes a flop bet a bad play in this situation?

[GrunchCan]

I think the equity edge in this hand is thin enough to warrant waiting for the turn to lead. I put Hero at 8 outs (7 for 2nd nut FD, 1 for backdoor SD), which gives Hero about 30% equity in the pot. That's an edge of only 5%. The turn will be the nexus of this hand, when values change drastically.

[Redd]

Ok, I now understand why the flop raise is a slim value bet, but I'm still confused about why Hero shouldn't protect his hand.

Hero likely has the best second pair given the pf play (but may be behind a weakish ace). Would a bet (or, given the initial check, an even more appropriate raise) do a good job of forcing out some other players? It seems like many players would tighten up with the 3-flush flop and may not like their naked aces. Or, do you think we won't fold any better hands/buy any outs and that this is just laggy behavior?

And one other quick question:
[ QUOTE ]
I put Hero at 8 outs (7 for 2nd nut FD, 1 for backdoor SD)..

[/ QUOTE ]
So at this point you don't anticipate that the 5 2-pair/trip outs are good?

Thanks,
Redd