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Minnow
12-08-2004, 12:18 AM
PS 2/4 .25 ante
7 Handed

$1.75 Pot after the antes (1SB)

*** 3rd STREET ***
Seat 2[Qd]
Minnow[2d Td 8d]
Seat 4[5d]
Seat 5[4d]
Seat 6[3s]
Seat 7[Ts]
Seat 8[Ac]

Seat 6 brings-in low $1
Minnow: calls $1 [The T, A and Q all folded before it got to me so even though 3 diamonds are dead I’ve got two overcards so I’m thinking this is an easy call at this point. Or did I make my first big mistake of this hand cause not only were three diamonds out but one of my tens. I've always been more of a sucker for flush draws than straight draws. I guess this is another one of those situations where either I improve on fourth or fold??]
Seat 4: calls $1

$4.75 in pot after 3rd street (2SB)

*** 4th STREET ***
Minnow[2d Td 8d] [Tc]
Seat 4[5d] [8s]
Seat 6[3s] [6d]

Minnow: bets $2 [I’m feeling pretty good at this point. Hey my hand improved. I’ve got a big pair while my opponents still don’t have any overcards to mine and there is still no apparent threat. This is an obvious bet and one player drops out. So far I’m still feeling good]
Seat 4: calls $2
Seat 6: folds

$8.75 in the pot after 4th street (2BB)

*** 5th STREET ***
Minnow[2d Td 8d Tc] [6h]
Seat 4[5d 8s] [2s]

Minnow: bets $4 [I would have appreciated some improvement to at least two pair here or even another diamond but I still don’t perceive a threat from Seat 4 so I bet. That’s all I can do. No reason for any tricky check raise try. I definitely don’t want to risk giving a free card. The basic odds chart in the back of the Roy West book shows the odds of making a flush with four of one suit and one other card at 1.75-1. So after my bet the pot is 12.75. Seat 4’s call is more than justified if he has picked up a flush draw. Right? I’m still not sure what he’s got. Pocket pair? Big pocket pair?. Straight draw? I think a straight draw is more likely than the others]
Seat4: calls $4

$16.75 in pot after 5th street (4BB)

*** 6th STREET ***
Minnow[2d Td 8d Tc 6h] [Kc]
Seat 4[5d 8s 2s] [Qs]

Minnow: bets $4
Seat 4: raises $4 to $8
Minnow: calls $4

After my bet there's $20.75 in the pot. (5BB) Seat 4 raises it to 8 making the pot 28.75. About 7BB. My flush draw is a long distant memory and it's too late to make a full house. My call is another heat of the battle type call. I can't believe he made a flush. Typically you discount a possible made flush on 6th if the opponents 3rd street card is not the same suit...right? Up to this point I wasnt really sure what he was drawing to although I thought most likely he was on a straight draw. These guys play small straight draws. I don't...but they do. So would any of you had checked to him once you saw that third suit? Then call and check and call on the river? If I checked and he hadnt yet made his flush he would have gotten a free draw to make it with one last card after I denied him that opportunity up to this point. Does it make sense to put on the brakes and assume I'm giving him a card? He's called me down this far.

According to the Fundamental theorem of poker every time you play a hand differently than you would have if you had seen your opponents cards your opponent gains. Obviously if I had known he had a flush I would not have bet and would have folded to his bet. All I can do is guess how likely it is that he does have a flush…right? So how do I do that? If I call I’m getting 7 to 1 that he doesn’t have a flush? How do I estimate how likely it is that he does have a flush and figure the odds of that. I hope that doesn’t sound too stupid. I’d think about this some more and try to figure it out on my own but after spending an hour typing this out and organizing it I’m spent.

$32.75 in the pot after 6th street. 8BB

*** RIVER ***
Minnow [2d Td 8d Tc 6h Kc] [6c]
Minnow: checks

Seat 4: bets $4
Minnow: calls $4 [obviously at this point I’ve resigned to checking and calling to see what I flushed $19.25 down the drain for.]

*** SHOW DOWN ***
Seat 4: shows [6s 4s 5d 8s 2s Qs 7h] (a flush, Queen high) So now I know what he’s got. Like I said, these low limit guys like to play the low straight draws. So he had an inside straight draw at fourth street with a backdoor flush draw. According to the RW odds table the odds against the inside straight draw alone at fourth street were 3 to 1. When he made his bet there was $6.75 in the pot. More than 3BB. And that doesn’t include implied odds and the possible 3 flush draw which I don’t know how to calculate all those together. So he actually made an OK call on fourth. Then on fifth he’s now picked up both an open ended straight draw and a flush draw. There was $12.75 in the pot (3BB) so he was getting 3 to 1 on his fifth street bet. Again I don’t know how to calculate the combined odds of his straight draw AND flush draw but he probably got good odds. Plus the bonus of some sucker betting into him on sixth when he made his flush so he could raise him and get at least one extra bet. So my lucky opponent actually played it pretty well. At least it worked out well for him. Turned into a no brainer in fact. I was on the difficult end of it. But there’s really nothing I could do I don’t think. Except maybe fold to the raise on 6th and save eight bucks. That’s poker. Right?

Any comments (or corrections) would be welcome. Thanks. Minnow. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

bobman0330
12-08-2004, 02:46 AM
I like the play of this hand at low limits. The call on 3rd is questionable. Three diamonds being out really eviscerates your hand's flush potential. If you feel the overcards alone are worth the call, or are very close, then it's fine. Once you pick up the tens, i think it's autopilot betting through 6th.

I like betting on 6th too. Usually, in a heads-up pot, someone who makes a 4-flush with anything else will raise to take control of the pot. Even weaker players will do this. If someone has a possible flush without earlier aggression, I generally won't worry. That's even more the case with his door card being a different suit.

His raise is not a fun thing to see, but I don't think you should even consider a laydown. He has position on you, but you're getting at least 4:1 through the rest of the hand. He'll bluff with a 4-flush or a big pair often enough to make these calls profitable, in my experience.

Andy B
12-08-2004, 03:32 AM
Your hand is a muck on third street. Three diamonds are dead, and your cards are fairly small. With a larger ante, a steal attempt might be OK if it has any chance of working (this seems tight for a $2/4 game), but here it scarcely seems worth it. I'm not too excited about your "over-cards." Having a Ten out isn't great, either. Bet fourth, bet fifth. Bet sixth, I s'pose, but when the other guy raises, well, he's probably got a pair of Tens crushed. You did spoil things by telling us what he had, but when I was reading this through, I thought, "the other guy made a flush." Now it's true that you should be less inclined to put a guy on a flush when his door card is not of that suit, but your typical $2/4 stud player isn't raising sixth without a hand, right? I'd say best-case is he's made Queens-up. In that case, you're drawing to four outs, and you're not getting the odds to do so. One shouldn't fold sixth street often, but I think that this is one of those times.

Anyway, that's what you get for limping in with garbage. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

BTW, the other guy should have raised with his big draw on fifth.

MBTIGUY
12-08-2004, 12:36 PM
I'm starting to agree with Andy all the time. Not that he's not usually right but it could mean that soon I'll be giving up my wine for beer and hating on Roy West. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Minnow, we both seem to play 2/4 and have read West. To me, 3rd and 6th are folds for reasons given in West. Yes, West stresses overcards but he also says that if they are not a King or Ace they aren't that hot. He also says a 3-flush with three dead cards is only worth playing if you have a couple of live premium cards to pair. You've also got three low cards to act after you and I'd be thinking that one or two might fold which doesn't make a flush worth chasing.
If I thought that my overcard ten was worth so much (and I don't), I'd rather raise given the low boards and see if I can't steal it right there, i.e. put in another dollar now instead of making a $2 bet on 4th. Also, maybe I can play 4th for free if I don't hit anything.


I also agree with Andy that 6th is a fold. As West says, players at these limits almost always have what they are representing. He's been chasing his hand and now he's hit it. At Stars there are some players clever enough to semi-bluff there but unless I knew about this player specifically, I'd assume he's got his hand. Worse, there's nothing you can draw to to beat it. Money not lost is money won - save the last two bets for another time when you can safely punish somebody drawing to those low straights and dead flushes.

Finally, in the back of West, he lists a bunch of great questions to aks yourself. The first is, "What's my objective?" In this case, your objectives were a low flush that had three dead cards; or pairing your ten with one already dead. West also asks, "Is this hand good enough to continue to play?" Given the objectives, I wouldn't play it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble. Maybe I'm becoming a Timmer clone instead of an Andy clone. /images/graemlins/smile.gif (Just kidding Timmer, I love your stuff, too.)

Andy B
12-08-2004, 01:30 PM
Hey, I can ramble with the best of 'em. Well, not like Felicia, but I can ramble.

I don't hate Roy West. I just don't recommend his book. Some of his Card Player articles are OK, but his isn't the first column I look for when I pick that up. I like wine; I just like beer a lot more. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyway, sounds like there's hope for you yet. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I wouldn't say that the other guy has been "chasing his hand." I'm not a fan of 654, but he did have a two-flush. The gut-shot with a three-flush is an OK hand. He was actually about even-money against Minnow on third, a slight dog on fourth, and a clear favorite by fifth. On sixth he had him drawing stone dead. I think this demonstrates the value of playing live hands.

Nick_Foxx
12-08-2004, 01:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't hate Roy West. I just don't recommend his book. Some of his Card Player articles are OK, but his isn't the first column I look for when I pick that up.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like to read the roy west column to see what kind of spread he has prepared for me that particular week... sometimes, it will just be some cold cuts but occasionally he goes all out

FeliciaLee
12-08-2004, 02:37 PM
Did Vehn hire to you heckle me on 2+2 once he got the boot??? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, I can ramble with the best of 'em. Well, not like Felicia, but I can ramble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy B
12-08-2004, 03:25 PM
Never heard of him.

Minnow
12-08-2004, 04:24 PM
I'm starting to believe Andy actually knows what he's talking about too. He is a Poob Bah after all. But I'm having a hard time with the idea that I should have mucked the hand on 3rd. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif OK...maybe it was a borderline call and I was stretching the defintion of a big card. I guess I figured in this case big card was relative. But that's not what got me anyway. If I had a Ad Kd 2d it wouldnt have made any difference in the final results. And if the A or K were completely live and I had paird the A or K on fourth it wouldnt have mattered. All I know at 3rd street is I'm up against a 5d and 3s showing with possibly a big hidden pair somewhere.

[ QUOTE ]
I also agree with Andy that 6th is a fold. As West says, players at these limits almost always have what they are representing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I agree. I don't know if it's competitive instinct or just obtuseness or what. Even though I know I should fold here I just can't let go. And I don't have enough analytical power at this point to fully realize during a game the likelihood I am beat.

[ QUOTE ]
He's been chasing his hand and now he's hit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know Andy responded to this. I agree. He wasnt really chasing. There was enough money there. I just had no way to put pressure on him to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
At Stars there are some players clever enough to semi-bluff there but unless I knew about this player specifically, I'd assume he's got his hand. Worse, there's nothing you can draw to to beat it. Money not lost is money won

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what gets me. I have folded the best hand to guys who didnt have what they were representing in these games. I guess this is where specific knowlege of a a player does matter. And West does talk about this also. Since I didnt know this player maybe I should have assumed he had what he was representing? I have a hard time with that.

Ramblin Minnow /images/graemlins/cool.gif

MBTIGUY
12-08-2004, 07:07 PM
I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my points. This is a great post in that it does raise a lot of common issues. We play in similar games, so I appreciate trading thoughts with you.
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I figured in this case big card was relative.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, but on 4th if someone catches an Ace or King, or even a Jack or Queen, your ten's relative value changes pretty quickly.

[ QUOTE ]
If I had a Ad Kd 2d it wouldnt have made any difference in the final results.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, in THIS case but the point is that you'll lose a lot more hands with what you had than A-K-2 suited. There's just not enough ways you can improve to a strong hand even heads up with what you had.

[ QUOTE ]
He wasnt really chasing. There was enough money there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Whatever point I was trying to make was stated so badly, I'm not sure what the point was supposed to be.

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I just had no way to put pressure on him to fold.

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Don't you just hate that when you have a marginal hand!! And the later it gets, the more not getting it right (check? call? fold? raise?) costs. That's what makes getting off marginal hands early so attractive.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess this is where specific knowlege of a a player does matter.

[/ QUOTE ]
My play made a huge (for me, anyway) leap when I got knowledge of other players. It just takes time and attention. Watch each showdown and see what they started with, whether the river card helped and what they kept calling bets with.
Once you have a good set of notes, you'll see your laydowns of the best hands go way down, who you can bluff/steal from and who you can't, who you can get extra bets from, etc. It's still guess work in every case but it's guessing with the benefit of real data. In the absence of that, I tend to go with the assumption that at the low limits they have what they are representing. All the more reason I don't want to overplay/overstay marginal hands when I can't get them to lay their hands down.

BTW, I am probably tighter than a lot of the "hotshots" here although I'm getting more successfully aggressive because of reading their posts.

OK, I'm done with my Timmer/Felicia Lee imitation (in length, hardly in knowledge!), now. Good luck!

Minnow
12-08-2004, 08:13 PM
Thank You. I appreciate yours and the other responses as well. Although I seem to be fighting it I'm Learning a lot with just this one hand. This is only the second hand I've posted in detail for discusion. While not all the comments have sunk in I believe they are having a positive affect on my game already. What's really surprising is that although I thought when I got most of Wests starting hand suggestions down I was playing tight, I'm learning I still don't play tight enough. Amazing. But I see all these crazy players constantly throwing their money around. /images/graemlins/confused.gif It does seem here in this forum I'm in the right place to learn to be a winning player. Just memorizing stuff from books doesnt seem to do it.

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Quote:
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I guess I figured in this case big card was relative.


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Sure, but on 4th if someone catches an Ace or King, or even a Jack or Queen, your ten's relative value changes pretty quickly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I started realizing that a little more clearly as I was writing my previous response.

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Quote:
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If I had a Ad Kd 2d it wouldnt have made any difference in the final results.


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Sure, in THIS case but the point is that you'll lose a lot more hands with what you had than A-K-2 suited. There's just not enough ways you can improve to a strong hand even heads up with what you had.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. This makes sense. <sigh>.

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Watch each showdown and see what they started with, whether the river card helped and what they kept calling bets with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm working on this. Almost feels like cheating when you start to get a useful file on someone. But I'm sure a number of the better players have notes on me. So in order to be competitive I've got to do it.

Thanks again for your input. This has been very helpful.