89s on button against a pf raise

[Chairman Wood]

I'm going to display the whole hand because, I think i botched some things postflop too. First question, can I call this preflop raise. I know there is some sort of magic number of people in the pot where I can then play this hand. Is this enough? Is there some sort of resource that I could use to that gives me my approx standing and how many bets need to be in the pot before I can make calls against a raise with certain marginal hands like weak suited connectors. After the flop, I'm so ashamed, I feel so weak, I don't know what to do. Please feel free to take shots at me. I'm not really sure how I should go about protecting this hand due to my poor position relative to the bettor so I thought I should just "hang on."
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $2.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 (poster) calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (8.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

River: (11.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 13.25 BB, between Hero and UTG.</font>

[mcozzy1]

I would have folded this hand pre-flop. I don't know what the magic number of players you need is, but I would guess it's a lot.

If I did call this hand pre-flop, I would have played it more aggressively. I would have raised the flop. First of all, you should find out what you're up against. If you get re-raised, you're probably up against a big PP.

If the turn isn't a club, 8, or 9 and it isn't checked around to you, you're probably beat. Calling off your chips like this isn't good.

[Koller]

Preflop call is good.

Flop: Standard.

Turn: Fold.

River: F-O-L-D!!!!!!

[MattC]

why not reraise the flop, if you get reraised then your behind, but if there is just a call, chance might be that you get to see a free card. Use your position to your advantage, paying a small bet instead of a bigbet at the turn to see the river is nice and if your reraised, you know that your beat at that point. You could be up against just overcards so that reraise could make them slow down enough for you to hope for another club or 2 pair/trips etc from the turn/river. If the bettor just calls your reraise then bets out again on the turn, at least you have an easier decision here to make then to just call the flop then make a guess as to do what to do on the turn.

In other words, pay a small bet to get a real good idea where your at in the hand.

and oh yeh, im not sure what the magic number is myself as i am still learning a lot everyday but i think 5 is pretty damn good especially given your position. Ill call with 5 others to the flop on the button with that hand more often then not, 'not' being im at a super super tight table.

[mike_wzrd]

Easy call preflop getting 11 to 1. I don't know exactly where the cutoff is, but this one is easy.

On the flop, the best way to protect your hand is to bet out and hope that UTG raises to knock people out. This flop didn't hit many people, and there's no flush draws, so I would expect a lot of people to fold. If BB does raise and knocked most people out, I'd consider a reraise to see if he really has anything. If he checks, then bet out on the turn, because he's going to be worried that you have a set. If he caps, then I'd call and fold to a turn raise if I don't improve.

[Koller]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy call preflop getting 11 to 1. I don't know exactly where the cutoff is, but this one is easy.

On the flop, the best way to protect your hand is to bet out and hope that UTG raises to knock people out. This flop didn't hit many people, and there's no flush draws, so I would expect a lot of people to fold. If BB does raise and knocked most people out, I'd consider a reraise to see if he really has anything. If he checks, then bet out on the turn, because he's going to be worried that you have a set. If he caps, then I'd call and fold to a turn raise if I don't improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is button.

[MoreWineII]

I lean towards a fold preflop. You're getting reasonable odds but your position to the raiser is terrible.

Other than that, I really have no idea here.

Call flop, fold turn seems reasonable.

Raise flop, bet safe turn card seems reasonable.

Raise flop, check or fold unsafe turn card seems reasonable.





/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[manpower]

I don't think his position to the pf raiser is that bad. Sure it's bad if you flop top pair, but I'm damned if it isn't a great place pump a flush or open ended straight draw.

[Chairman Wood]

Anyone else? There are a quite a few people saying this is a good call preflop and some saying it is a bad one. Is there a resource, book, chart, webpage etc. that has a list of what sort of odds you need to call with certain marginal hands?

Now, I see there are a variety of good lines to take post-flop, I probably should raise the flop and go from there.
UTG had A J
MHIG

[MattC]

based on holdem for advanced players, to my understanding its a good call. And say the pot werent raised, its a good spot to even raise.

[brian0729]

Hey Chairman,

Pre flop: This is straight from SSH. Ed dont sue me. On the button. "Against a raise: Same guidelines that you would use from early and middle positon against a raise, except that if three players have entered the pot so far (the raiser and at least two callers), also call with any pocket pair and QJs-T9s". With you having four callers. I think this is an easy complete.

However I dont like most of the lines post flop:. I would have called the flop as you did. A raise is not going to lose anyone and a ton of overcards hurt your hand. Call and see what the turn brings.

Turn: If all your 8 and 9's are good and I believe they are this is an easy call getting 10.25:1.

River: You missed, this is an easy fold. C'mon. The only think you really beat that UTG might have is AQ, AJ. You are never going to be good here 8% of the time.

GL,
Brian

[Koller]

[ QUOTE ]
If all your 8 and 9's are good and I believe they are this is an easy call getting 10.25:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 outs vs. AA-JJ,99
0 vs. TT

[MattC]

which is why i think its important he raises on the flop, it gives him a much better idea where he stands and it only costs one small bet instead of playing the turn for 1 bigbet with less information on where he stands.

your minimizing loss if your beat while still playing the hand. is there something wrong with this?

besides whats the point of playing a hand with good position if you dont take advantage of this position to play the hand . I mean there are obviously times where its an easy fold given a flop but this isnt one of those times.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I think i botched some things postflop too. First question, can I call this preflop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand will go on to beat the field about 16-18% of the time. If both blinds come along the call can be slightly positive, but more often then not it will be slightly negative.

[ QUOTE ]
I know there is some sort of magic number of people in the pot where I can then play this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The value in this hand does not exist pre-flop. Its one of those situations where you can go in preflop with a slight equity defecit knowing you can make it up on later streets. There is no magic to it, you just have to be able to out play your opponents post flop. The better you can out play them, the less people you need in the hand in the first place. The worse you play post flop, the more you need a school of the fish to protect you.

Stu

[Chairman Wood]

Stu
Most excellent, thank you. You had the number 16%-18%, where did you get that from?

[brian0729]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If all your 8 and 9's are good and I believe they are this is an easy call getting 10.25:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 outs vs. AA-JJ,99
0 vs. TT

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I missed the paired flop. This makes a turn fold much closer if not a definate.

[Trix]

Preflop is ok, but close, so a good call if you play it well postflop and a fold for a bad player.

Raise the flop, on this board, a 3bet will be a very reliable way to tell that you are behind and can fold the turn unimproved.
Bet the turn and fold if raised if he just call, if UTG is still around on the river, then you may have to check behind.