A play with Ace-King offsuit

[nepenthe]

Party 3/6 game. Pretty typical opponents all around. Rather loose and passive table. I'm in the SB with K /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif. There are 4 limpers to me. I complete. BB checks. 6 opponents.

Flop comes: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to LMP who bets out. Folded to me and I call. Everyone else folds.

Turn:3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked to LMP who bets. I call.

River: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet intending to call a raise.

[Entity]

I don't like the preflop play much, since you're going to have to earn 2-3 extra BB in general (when you hit) to make up for it, which is a bit of a deficit.

Given your preflop complete, I like your postflop line.

Rob

[laja]

I would definately raise this preflop, make them pay for limping in with bad hands. You will win more than your fair share. Then proceed to play it aggressively past that:)

[Entity]

Mind sharing your thinking w/the preflop complete? I know I've seen John Feeney discuss this in the past in a thread here, and he mentioned that it could be a good idea to limp or just knock with AK in the BB occasionally, but most disagreed. What was your reasoning for it here?

Rob

[nepenthe]

Well, I love raising AKo preflop as much as the next guy. I also hate being completely out of position probably more than the next guy. This time around, the hate overcame the love. FWIW, I would raise AKs in this spot 100% of the time, but with said offsuit, I tend to mix it up a bit. Neither preflop play with AKo in this precise situation is a clear favorite over the other for me.

I have indeed read the various threads involving AKo in which Mr. Feeney was involved, and would like to think that any preflop deficits suffered by doing what I did can be salvaged by outplaying my opponents postflop with a premium holding, with the value of deception added in for good measure. By outplaying, I obviously mean maximizing potential earned bets, maximizing saved bets, as well as maximizing my winning chances (none of which is mutually exclusive to each other), through information gathered postflop which is likely to be enhanced by the latent power of my holding in conjunction with the board.

[Joe Tall]

Why give up so much preflop?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I would raise AKs in this spot 100% of the time, but with said offsuit, I tend to mix it up a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 3/6 hold'em. A.K.A. Small stakes. Last I heard, you don't need to mix it up at small stakes. The bulbs at the other end of the table are simply not glowing that brightly.

[BottlesOf]

I'd say pretty lousy.

raise preflop

[jclin]

[ QUOTE ]
This is 3/6 hold'em. A.K.A. Small stakes. Last I heard, you don't need to mix it up at small stakes. The bulbs at the other end of the table are simply not glowing that brightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. In addition, I don't think there is much difference b/t AKs v. AKo. Yet, being first position is very sucky. I prefer raise vs. call, but call is OK.

[Stu Pidasso]

Having kept the pot small I think you should check raise the flop.

Stu

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
Why give up so much preflop?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[nepenthe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is 3/6 hold'em. A.K.A. Small stakes. Last I heard, you don't need to mix it up at small stakes. The bulbs at the other end of the table are simply not glowing that brightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. In addition, I don't think there is much difference b/t AKs v. AKo. Yet, being first position is very sucky. I prefer raise vs. call, but call is OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference between AKo and AKs is great enough that a raise with the latter is no longer just a good or preferable play; it is a mandatory play regardless of position.

[blackaces13]

OK, I don't understand any street here and I'm wondering why there isn't really anyone saying that the hand makes just about no sense. I could be wrong but:

Not raising loose/passive limpers with AK is a big mistake according to SSH and most of what I've ever read on these boards. I think not raising AQ would be a mistake here too but at least close.

Why would you hit your hand in the blind, check it, and then NOT raise a late bettor? Either lead or check-raise. Why are you check-calling TPTK with a late bettor and players behind you?

The turn is semi-scary but its heads up. Again check-call, with TPTK and an opponent who I wouldn't really think has me beat unless he hit a flush, doesn't raise AA preflop, has a small set, or plays K-rag. None of these things seems particularly likely and I think you can raise and fold to a 3 bet. I don't understand the check-call here either.

Stop and go on the river. Once again, I don't get it. Why not raise the turn?

Basically I just don't understand this hand at all. It looks to me like you played like a complete calling station but since everyone else seems to at least think the play is reasonable, what am I missing?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Given your preflop complete, I like your postflop line.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm slow but, why? He has TPTK against players showing no real strength and doesn't raise a late bettor from the blinds with players behind him on the flop. Then check-calls the turn against a lone opponent he has no reason to believe is ahead of him IMO.

The entire hand basically looks identical to the way a typical loose/passive player would play it. Before I'd ever read a book I'd probably play AK this way.

[Trix]

Tommy, is that you ?

[nepenthe]

Opponent paused for a moment, apparently bewildered, and called down with King-Six of hearts.

The next hand, I was given King-Ace offsuit on the Button and raised and ended up taking down the pot with flopped two-pair to the same opponent's turned two pair.

[J.R.]

Having kept the pot small I think you should check raise the flop.

The bet came from LP, and a flop check-raise is a protection move. You didn't build a pot to protect and limped for deception, so why not try to catch a few for multiple bets on the turn? I know there is a 2 flush on the flop, and you hand isn't invulnerable, but the point of the preflop seems to be that he is forsaking a bit of preflop ev for a deceptive play that may allow him to exploit a much bigger EV spot later on. A flop check-raise seems to deny you the opportunity to make a raise on the big bet street, and seem to shut people out of the pot. I like his postflop line, but would have considered check-raising the turn had it not been the third spade.

[J.R.]

through information gathered postflop which is likely to be enhanced by the latent power of my holding in conjunction with the board.

I kinda think the info you gather postflop is not enhanced by your deception, but is rather less reliable and accurate as your opponent's actions are partly responsive to and based upon your under-representation of your hand. A bet or raise by your opponents on a K high board when you limp in the small blind doesn't mean the same as when you raise from the SB after 4 limpers. BTW, when is the power of your holding, whether latent or patent, not in conjunction with the board?