QJo - middle pair heads up [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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ccwhoelse?

12-07-2004, 09:22 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB
Main Pot: 8.50 BB, between SB and Hero.

i had been showing down some good hands prior to this, so i figure most people were folding to my raises.

maybe when he bet on the flop, i should have credited him with a solid hand.

Nick C

12-07-2004, 09:25 PM

Did you have AQo or QJo?

Hack

12-07-2004, 09:28 PM

He said he had middle pair so he couldn't have AQ, otherwise he would have top two pair then. I assume the subject is just a typo.

ccwhoelse?

12-07-2004, 09:40 PM

sorry, yea typo. fixed it now.

Shillx

12-07-2004, 09:41 PM

PF raise is crazy. Call the flop here. Fold the turn if he bets again. The board pair cuts your outs by 3/5 if he has an ace.

Shill

milesdyson

12-07-2004, 09:41 PM

I don't like the PFR with QJo. I'd fold.

Nick C

12-07-2004, 10:44 PM

I would probably just fold on the flop, thinking SB probably has top pair, and I don't want to draw to five outs in this relatively small pot. (He did bet into an ace after you raised preflop, after all.) Possibly he hopes the ace scares you and is taking a stab, but I wouldn't like the chances that that's the case enough to continue.

If you think you can push your opponent off of a weak ace on the flop, then that's one reason to raise here. But I don't think most 0.5/1 players fold top pair very often.

Hack

12-07-2004, 11:03 PM

I never like raising with this hand and I would probably fold it from this position in a 9-person game.

Nick C

12-07-2004, 11:04 PM

I routinely fold QJo. I play it sometimes in late position and also in the blinds, but that's about it.

Entity

12-07-2004, 11:08 PM

This should be a routine fold in EP, never a raise.

Rob

Hack

12-07-2004, 11:12 PM

When do you play it, Entity? I will play it from the CO, button, SB, and BB, obviously, but if it is raised before it gets to me, I will fold it even in the BB. Is this correct?

And if it's not raised when I get this in the SB or BB should I raise with it after a lot of limpers or just complete/check? I know that big offsuit hands don't play well multiway, but if everyone is already in the pot I am not getting anyone to fold.

QJ suited on the other hand, I will limp with in early position and raise with in late-middle position if it hasn't been raised yet. Is this correct?

Shillx

12-07-2004, 11:17 PM

According to Poker Room, QJo has marginal positive value. I never played it under my previous playing style, but now I'm trying to find some spots where it might be profitable. Blinds and late position come to mind. It's a good hand to steal with, otherwise you should avoid it in raised pots.

Shill

Hack

12-07-2004, 11:19 PM

How about it in an unraised pot, from the CO, button, or blinds. Should I limp in with it even though these are medium offsuit cards?

btspider

12-07-2004, 11:27 PM

here's one example i had recently. postflop may be interesting too. the river didn't really change anything. i was planning to raise anyway.

villian was 65 VPIP and 1.67 AF (pretty high for that VPIP).

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB
Main Pot: 10.50 BB, between SB and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (10.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB has 5c 5d (two pair, fives and twos).
Hero has Jh Qs (two pair, queens and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.50 BB.

Entity

12-07-2004, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
here's one example i had recently. postflop may be interesting too.
villian was 65 VPIP and 1.67 AF (pretty high for that VPIP).

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB
Main Pot: 10.50 BB, between SB and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (10.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB has 5c 5d (two pair, fives and twos).
Hero has Jh Qs (two pair, queens and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.50 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]
spider,

You were raising this river even if it were a blank, right?

Rob

Entity

12-07-2004, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When do you play it, Entity? I will play it from the CO, button, SB, and BB, obviously, but if it is raised before it gets to me, I will fold it even in the BB. Is this correct?

And if it's not raised when I get this in the SB or BB should I raise with it after a lot of limpers or just complete/check? I know that big offsuit hands don't play well multiway, but if everyone is already in the pot I am not getting anyone to fold.

QJ suited on the other hand, I will limp with in early position and raise with in late-middle position if it hasn't been raised yet. Is this correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's rare that I play it anymore. Mostly I play it for its high card value when I have position on weak limpers, and I'll play it for a raise then. Otherwise the SB, BB (of course, but never for a raise) and occasionally the Button.

It's just a hand I hate in general. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

SlantNGo

12-07-2004, 11:30 PM

Were you planning to call down all the way unimproved? I would have either raised this flop or the turn, unless SB has shown a tendency to bet out then fold to a raise. Your hand is too strong to be calling down.

EDIT: I see that you were planning to raise the river anyways. My mistake. However, I still think raising on the turn is better. If he bets out the turn again, he's most likely got something he'll want to go to showdown with, so I pop him there and probably release to a 3-bet.

Shillx

12-07-2004, 11:30 PM

Very well played. I wager that lots of people will tell you to raise the flop. They are wrong.

Shill

Entity

12-07-2004, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Were you planning to call down all the way unimproved? I would have either raised this flop or the turn, unless SB has shown a tendency to bet out then fold to a raise. Your hand is too strong to be calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]
You might want to look into this line HU on drawless boards. Call flop, call turn, raise river. Bet if you are ever checked to. Obviously raising the turn is fine against an opponent who will call down, but the line I suggested (and spider seemed to be taking) nets the most from an opponent who will fold a stupid bluff.

Rob

Entity

12-07-2004, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Very well played. I wager that lots of people will tell you to raise the flop. They are wrong.

Shill

[/ QUOTE ]
I think raising the turn might've been OK against this opponent.

Rob

btspider

12-07-2004, 11:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
spider,

You were raising this river even if it were a blank, right?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i added that comment after i posted it and realized the raise and river Q may be misinterpretted.

i intended to raise a non-A/K river pretty much since it would be less likely i'll get called by a worse hand.

yeah, this opponent was going to bet the river a fair amount and call a raise out of curiosity. he may have found a fold on the turn since its further from showdown.

Hack

12-07-2004, 11:36 PM

Okay I see now. I should probably do that too.

Do you raise with QJs from EP and MP if you're first in or do you call in EP and raise from MP?

SlantNGo

12-07-2004, 11:38 PM

I've yet to face an opponent who will bet on all 3 streets then fold to a raise... then again, I'm still at 0.5/1 on Party, and the highest I've played is 1/2 Ladbrokes 6-max. The way I see it, if he's on a bluff, he will check the river and fold to your bet. You gain the same amount by raising him on the turn, and in the event he's holding a K or A, get him to fold there. Why give him a chance to draw to his 3-outer when you can make the same by raising the turn?

Shillx

12-07-2004, 11:39 PM

Yeah quite possibly. The call/call/raise line works so well though. Everytime I have used it, I have gotten paid off. The keys are: the pot must be small and there must be doubt that you actually have the best hand. In this case a turn raise is okay because the Hero almost surely has the best hand.

Shill

Entity

12-07-2004, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've yet to face an opponent who will bet on all 3 streets then fold to a raise... then again, I'm still at 0.5/1 on Party, and the highest I've played is 1/2 Ladbrokes 6-max. The way I see it, if he's on a bluff, he will check the river and fold to your bet. You gain the same amount by raising him on the turn, and in the event he's holding a K or A, get him to fold there. Why give him a chance to draw to his 3-outer when you can make the same by raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
You will soon come up against opponents who play their 55 hand exactly the same as this guy, but when you raise the turn, they'll fold. And that sucks, because you miss a bet.

Those same guys who will fold your turn raise will still bet the river, because you've got to have AK, right? Then when you raise the river, they've got to know what you played this way.

It's an odd phenomenon, but you'll see it more and more.

Ni han, spider.

Rob