Reevaluating a simple part of my game

[pshreck]

Limp or fold???

***** Hand History for Game 1271030533 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Blinds(25/50) -
Table Table 13972 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 5: LkyLadyB ( $415 )
Seat 6: rjbmemphis ( $1245 )
Seat 3: HERO ( $800 )
Seat 10: kelster ( $635 )
Seat 9: Wamblamee ( $1110 )
Seat 1: Multiplier ( $2250 )
Seat 8: trmdl ( $1020 )
Seat 4: allboys54474 ( $525 )
Trny:7722374 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kc Qd ]
Wamblamee folds.
kelster calls [50].
Multiplier folds.
HERO ??

I think this question is simple, yet I can't really figure out what I want to do here.

[jcm4ccc]

8-handed, so it seems a pretty easy fold to me. 50 chips is not insignificant at this point. Limp 2 or 3 times with marginal hands, and you're swimming with the other fishes.

If you do decide to limp, go in with a plan if you get top pair on the flop. That's the most likely way the flop will hit your hand, and the most difficult to play.

You can:

Check/fold
Raise/fold to reraise
Raise/call a reraise

etc etc etc

Many ways to play it, many ways to lose a significant amount of your chips. Difficult to win a large amount of chips, because you're not going to want to commit yourself to top pair. That's why I would fold.

[UMTerp]

Very easy fold.

[Irieguy]

KQ is profitable for a limp if certain conditions are present:

1. Late position
2. A table where several players will limp with weaker kings and queens
3. Little risk of being raised by the blinds
4. Limping will cost less than 10% of your stack, and a player hitting top pair with weaker King or Queen will be willing to pay off their whole stack.

These conditions are frequently present, so limping will often be worth it. The reason why I suspect that you are having difficulty with this decision is because of the risk of getting raised by the blinds. This is a key factor... if they are at all tricky or aggressive, these kinds of plays are best left in the muck.

I would say that limping is profitable here more times than not, but it takes a pretty sophisticated level of judgement to be able to tell when. Folding everytime is better than limping everytime... but you will be giving something up if you routinely fold. KJ is one of SNG players' most favorite hands to go broke with... you should abide from time to time and help them go broke.

Irieguy

[morgan180]

This is a great point. In the early levels I am throwing away a lot of AJ/AT/KQ pockets because they're so easy to go broke on. Because its early I have no idea the guy is going to turn over K9 to beat someone's K6.

Am I giving up too many opportunities to take a lot of chips, or am I keeping myself from busting out in 8th/9th/10th on a regular basis?

My biggest problem with these hands is:

1. i limp
2. hit top pair
3. have an all-in or huge raise in front of me -- OR -- make a pot size bet and have a huge raise behind me
4. fold with less chips and scratching my head about what just happened and if i was too weak.

i think that these types of situations come up much more frequently then how to play with big pocket pairs or ace king, but there doesn't seem to be a ton of discussion about them.

How about other broadway holdings? Anyone play these? and how/when/and what are you looking to hit with them, straight draws, flush draws or top pairs??

[Sidekick]

It sounds like waffling, but it depends on how I've seen the other players play so far.

If I've seen a number of the other players play crap hands (e.g. Kxo, Qxo, etc.) then I will probably limp here. If I haven't seen anyone playing crappy hands it is an easy fold.

Some of my SnGs are quite tight, while in others half the players seem drunk and can't read the board. At this point I would have some idea of how table is playing and would base my decision accordingly.

[royaltrux]

I'm a newbie who plays and studies mostly limit hold-em so excuse my ignorance. You guys are serious about folding KQo with no aggression/raise present? I know limit is a totally different animal but a raise would be a no-brainer in this situation in limit.

I just can't fathom not limping in with KQ and none of the no limit books I've read (super system, helmuth's books and Sklansky's hold em for beginner and advanced) would ever advise this.

Even pocket rockets get cracked. You have to play the premium hands when the situation is correct and this seems perfect for a raise. Like I said though, maybe I'm wrong, limit is my strong suit and I am here to learn.

Thanks for any input.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
I know limit is a totally different animal.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Here's why.

Let's say you have KQo, and the person behind you has AQo.

Here's the hand in limit:

preflop: You raise 30 chips, Opponent raises to 60 chips, you call.

flop: 2c 6c Qh. You raise 30 chips, opponents raises 60 chips. You call.

Turn: 9h. You check, opponent raises 60 chips, you call.
River: 8s. You check, opponent raises 60 chips, you call.

I don't really know if that's how you would play it in limit, but the point is that you only lost 240 chips.


Here's how it goes in NL:

You limp with 30 chips. Your opponent limps with 30 chips. Another opponent limps with 30 chips, SB completes, BB completes.

flop: 2c 6c Qh. You make a pot-sized bet of 150 chips. Opponent smooth calls you. You think he's working on a flush draw.

Turn: 9h. Pot is now 450. You make a bet of 350, thinking your opponent is working on a flush draw. He goes all-in. Now what do you do? Fold and give away the 530 chips you already bet? Call the all-in when you don't have the top kicker? Or berate yourself for limping with the damned KQo when you were out of position?

[housenuts]

the difference between limit and no limit is the same as the difference between diarrhea and constipation. they are completely different.

i don't even know if you'd want to limp with this hand in the same limit tourney situation. in a ring game you would, but tourney situations dictate alot more than the cards do. with no limit you're at risk of going broke at any point, and KQ is not a solid enough hand to risk that with. you are dominated by too many hands.

[esbesb]

I think you guys are playing too tight, folding KQ in middle position in an eight handed game with the blinds worth taking and NO STRENGTH shown before you.

I'd probably raise to 150.

[royaltrux]

No offense but no that would be totally wrong to play that way in limit. You can see these limit boards or 2+2's LLH for why.

My question is he's not that out of position (one from the cut off). His print out for the order of seats is screwy (check the numbers next to the names). eight handed and he is in LP. What book could you reference that has you throwing KQo away with no raise in late position?

This is in no way meant to be smart ass. I'm really trying to learn.

[raptor517]

a few things. KQo is an absolute trap hand. you can flop top pair, but never have the best kicker. that is a problem. With the blinds at 25-50, you have plenty of time to work.

what happens when u limp in mp, and someone raises the minimum, which always happens in the smaller sngs. well, u have to call obviously, as its only 50 more. say you flop nothing, you check fold, now u have 700 chips, a double up gets you 1400 now instead of 1600. sizeable.

say the flop comes Q72, a good flop for your hand. what do you do then? what could a later position player be min raising with. say u check, he bets, then what? raise? risk your whole stack? what if you bet out, then get raised? again, risk your whole stack?

in my opinion, there are too many intangables with KQ. i would fold, 99% of the time in that situation. people have accused me of playing overly tight, and that may be true, but my results seem to work out for me.

[Gramps]

I fold KQo the vast, vast majority of the time in spots like this. Although...this is close to the one exception I make - If the table is somewhat passive (you don't have to fear a raise behind), and you have a short enough stack where you're ready to go to war with top pair/good kicker, and there's a prettty good chance you'd be bet into on the flop (or the limper/BB are known very loose flop callers), and you had more like 600 chips here...I think putting 50 in for a chance to double up/add 50% to your stack in a pretty high% top pair situation (highly doubtful you'll be dominated if no one raises) is okay.

Note that when you have a short stack (like 500-600 at 25/50) relative to the other players in the hand, they also are more willing to go to war against you with more marginal holdings, since (a) they figure you may be making a desperate stand, and (b) even if you double through them, they'll still have a lot of chips left. The more chips you have, the less likely your opponents will be to go to war against you with a hand that top pair/2nd best kicker beats.

With 800 chips though...you have a fair amount of fold equity for the next doubling blind level of 50/100 (even if you pay a round of blinds before doing anything). Your opponents may give your bets/raises more respect and fold hands you want calling. I'd probably fold (unless I've seen the BB or limper as the type to go to war often with very weak hands, then I'd probably risk it if I didn't fear the reraise behind)

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

I think you guys are playing too tight, folding KQ in middle position in an eight handed game with the blinds worth taking and NO STRENGTH shown before you.

I'd probably raise to 150.


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?
Say you raise all fold except SB.
Flop comes Q94 rainbow.
SB bets pot into you.
Your move?

[royaltrux]

Can anyone reference any respected author or player who advocates folding this? Because if his seat numbers are right hero is one off the co so he is in late position with a premium hand.

[morgan180]

exactly - you're either way behind, or somewhat ahead, but you have no idea.

does any one get this feeling w/ AJ, AT as well?? i think these are just as much trap hands as KQ early. later, short handed, higher blinds, etc. etc. changes everything, but early i'm tossing KQ, AJ, etc., because i'd rather know where i'm at when most of my stack is going in the middle of the table.

[raptor517]

as far as i know there is no good literature about palying a sit and go on the internet. lee jones wrote about playing super tight and not stealing blinds to sneak into the money. he is a very respected poker writer. not good advice. i would imagine, that the people that play these the best are not in fact the renowned world champs or poker authors, but the two plus twoers that play these sit and gos all day every day.

[royaltrux]

if the seat numbers he posted are correct he is in late position.

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone reference any respected author or player who advocates folding this? Because if his seat numbers are right hero is one off the co so he is in late position with a premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every hold em book or article you have ever read by a big name pro has been on cash games or a big tournament. SNGs are so different than these that it wouldn't be possible to compare the literature with the SNG style of play.

[royaltrux]

I guess that's where I got lost. I was thinking in no-limit hold em terms and not sit n go terms.

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]
Huh?
Say you raise all fold except SB.
Flop comes Q94 rainbow.
SB bets pot into you.
Your move?

[/ QUOTE ]

and what if, SB checks, you make the pot bet and get reraised.. probably easier than the above, but still you've got a bunch of chips already in.

even at the minimum reraise you're still looking at about 1/4 - 1/3 your stack (on party)

now what?

[Michael C.]

From Championship No-Limit & Pot Limit Hole 'Em, by TJ Cloutier, page 236:

I treat K-Q like 2-3, like its the plague in no-limit Hold 'Em, unless everybody passes to me on the button."

[esbesb]

Bet at least the pot. That's a great flop for me. What would you do?

[jcm4ccc]

I don't play limit, so I'm not offended. The point is, you can't compare NL with limit in terms of starting hands. In limit, you're not going to go broke playing the KQo, even if your hand is dominated. You can check/call to the river if you want. Can't do that in NL.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet at least the pot. That's a great flop for me. What would you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a great flop for you if you had limped and QJ and QT had come along for the ride. Then you can raise with confidence. However, by raising PF you've eliminated all the dominated Ks and Qs, leaving only those Ks and Qs that dominate you.

The flop I outlined is great for you, but its better for AQ, and given the PF action you have no idea whether SB has that or not.

[bball904]

I fold because of the limper ahead of you. I'd raise to 150 if you're opening though.

[esbesb]

Look, I've raised to 150. I've gotten one caller and dead money in the pot. I've got position. I've got top pair and the second-best possible kicker. Assuming AA or KK would have re-raised me, there is only one possible hand I am really worried about: AQ. There are MANY other hands with he might have called with that are not AQ. I have a queen, and there is another queen on the board. That means, I would have to be scared that he has one of the two remaining queens in the deck, paired with an ace, and he did not lead out on the flop (thereby giving me a free card with a possible straight draw on the board). So, although I cannot be SURE he does not have AQ, I can be reasonably confident I have the best hand.

On the other hand, if I had limped, I have a bunch of players in the pot with god knows what, including possibility for sets and two pair.

Tight is good, but in a $20 sit-n-go, I think I can afford to play KQ in mid/late position with blinds worth having, and no strenghth shown before me. This is not the WSOP. If I'm wrong, I get check-raised and either lay the hand down (which I would have to be pretty darn sure to do)or just be wrong and start up another SnG.

It's good not to bust out, but it's also dangerous to go into the final rounds of a Sit N Go without enough chips to give yourself folding equity. You gotta take a few risks here and there.

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]
There are MANY other hands with he might have called with that are not AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming that the blinds are 25/50 what are the hands that you think are going to call a 3x BB raise?

While AQ is just one of them, I don't know how many hands there are, by raising and getting called you've assured yourself that you're up against a strong hand, and are no longer a favorite to other dominated K and Q hands.

Or am I missing something here?

lets just say that we choose any hand that will call a 3 x bb raise as the following:

{ AA-66, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo }

SO PRE-FLOP:
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 54.1366 % [ 00.51 00.04 ] { AA-66, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo }
Hand 2: 45.8634 % [ 00.42 00.04 ] { KQo }


and on the flop:

now what hands will call/raise you?
{ AA-JJ, 99, 44, AKs-AQs, KQs, AQo } more hands then these that would stick around for a PF raise???


Board: Qc 9d 4h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 67.0086 % [ 00.65 00.02 ] { AA-JJ, 99, 44, AKs-AQs, KQs, AQo }
Hand 2: 32.9914 % [ 00.31 00.02 ] { KQo }


so i think you're in a tough spot one way or another.

[esbesb]

I don't fully understand what you've done here with the numbers. But look at it this way:

I am not talking about going all in with KQ. I am talking about raising with KQ in mid/late position and using position to my advantage against one caller who (according to the hypothetical from the other poster) called in the small blind.

You've identified something like 25 hands that might call that raise preflop. And remember, we are talking about a measly $20 sng, so that is probably not far off the mark.

When the flop comes giving me top pair, the vast majority of those hands are going to fold to my post-flop bet (if they called, that would be even better). I am dominated by only AA, KK (unlikely) or AQ (unless he's hit a set).

Add to that that my raise in the first instance had two objectives: (1) pick up the blinds and the limper pre-flop; or (2) get position on a player with dead money in the pot and very decent cards and see what the flop brings.

If you don't play KQ in mid-late position with no strenth in front of you, what do you play? You could play AQ, but what if you're called by AK? You could play AK, but what if you're called by ANY pocket pair and get no help on the flop? I mean, you've got to chose good cards, look for situtions, try to isolate, and make some post-flop judgments about whether you are likely to have the best hand. My game improved a lot when I opened up a little bit here and there (but not too much). And don't forget that we are talking about a $20 sng with eight players left, mid/late position, blinds worth having, and no strength demonstrated before you. You can't just sit around a SnG waiting for AA, KK, QQ or AK. You only get about 40 hands or so until the blinds get up to 100/200.

[morgan180]

All I was showing was that if you open raise 3 x BB and get called, you would be a slight dog to the probable range of hands that would call you.

Then, you catch the flop you want - bet and get called you are going to be an even bigger dog to the probable hands that would again call you. (not to say anything about a reraise)

Saying that though, you're points about:

1. stealing blinds
2. playing position

are dead on.

I would steal with KQ later in an SNG (maybe just one level later too) at 75/150, 100/200 and up ALL DAY LONG, just not at an early phase where the blinds don't mean a lot.

Playing position makes a lot of sense too.

My point was if you get called there's a good chance you're at best a coin-flip, at worst dominated or way behind. On the flop, even though it's "favorable" you still have the ability to make the second best hand a large number of times.

So I agree with you on most of what you say. I just like to follow the Sklansky saying (paraphrasing now) don't take merely a slightly positive proposition if it will keep you from taking an even better one in the future. If you take this gamble now, and either

1. lose chips
2. bust out

you have lost lots of +ev on future betting rounds with more favorable conditions.

Just my opinion.

[ChrisV]

The difference with playing AQ (and AK) is that when you flop a pair with those hands you flop top pair, top kicker. KQ is a hand with which is is impossible to flop top pair, top kicker. Furthermore AQ and AK are hands which can win unimproved versus things like AJ, whereas KQ unimproved beats virtually nothing. Therefore going passive with the hand postflop isn't an option unless you want to abandon the pot.

KQ is an OK hand (although those in this thread describing it as "premium" are dreaming) and if Hero was on the button a raise to 200 would be aggressive but reasonable. However Hero is not on the button or anything like it. If he gets reraised he's folding and if he gets smooth called by a player with position on him he's in a WORLD of hurt. The pot on the flop will be of a size where Hero will be almost pot committed if he takes a stab. Short of things like KQx there is no flop I'm overjoyed to see when i get smooth called.

[tigerite]

There is also another Sklansky phrase that comes into play here. "Don't raise with a hand that would hate a re-raise"

[Voltron87]

I fold KQ here. If the blinds were 50/100 I would raise to steal them in an unraised, unlimped pot, knowing that my KQ can stand a loose call.

KQ is a good hand, I play and raise it with position it in cash games, but SNGs are a completely different game. In an SNG early on even TPTK hands are the hands which will bust you.

With KQ you will either win the blinds (negligible), 100-175 chips, or you will get busted. There is almost no way you win an all in with KQ unless you get lucky and outdraw someone (ie not a top pair situation).

[Johnny69]

KQo being played in an early stage of an SNG is a pure gamble.
-EV in my opinion. In the later stages when there are less players and expensive blinds, KQo is a nice hand.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
KQo being played in an early stage of an SNG is a pure gamble.
-EV in my opinion. In the later stages when there are less players and expensive blinds, KQo is a nice hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I completely agree with you (read my post above) but there is one subtlety.

KQ is still + T chip EV.
However it is not +$ EV because of the ways you can lose youre whole stack.

What I mean is that KQ in this situation is +chip EV, but the few chips you earn will not help you enough to win an SNG to offset the times you are busted.


That is really me being hyper anal, esp about adjusting to using it when blinds are higher.

[Strollen]

[ QUOTE ]
Look, I've raised to 150. I've gotten one caller and dead money in the pot. I've got position. I've got top pair and the second-best possible kicker. Assuming AA or KK would have re-raised me, there is only one possible hand I am really worried about: AQ. There are MANY other hands with he might have called with that are not AQ. I have a queen, and there is another queen on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also a newbie on SNGs but I am with esbesb here.

The tight advice I see here is probably right for $100 SNG or MTTs but for a $10 or $20, I am amazed that KQo is a foldable hand in mid positon with a single cal. I guess if you are in a table with 7 other good players... But people will go in with a huge range of hands that would horrify folks here and even call raises with hands much worse than KQo. Shouldn't we make them pay for their play?

Esbesb is right AQo is really the only hand you need to worry about if you flop the top pair. If somebody is out there with QQ, KK, AA, or AK and isn't raising, congratulations they will have trapped you and are out of the SNG.

It seems to me fair more likely if you get a pretty safe flop like Qs 9H 3H that somebody will call your pots size bet and draw out on you with a 10J or AX suited.

Now I don't know between fold and 150 raise but I'd be inclined for the raise.

[SuitedSixes]

Mastering Party Poker, is the definitive work on the SNG, and in it, the well respected author, recommends folding everything but AA, KK, and AK throughout the first four rounds . . . even in the big blind.

[Sarcasm detectors may now be turned off]

[Bigwig]

I call and see a flop with one limper already in.

[Bigwig]

One other point I'd like to make. I hear people talking about how this is 'early.' It's not. The average stack is 16BB. That's squat. I'll take my chances here with a Q72 flop with KQ and will call and reraise all in without a preflop raise.

Preflop raise changes things. KQ becomes garbage almost everytime to a preflop raise that doesn't come from the SB and you're in the BB with nobody else in the pot. In other words, rarely.

[CarlSpackler]

I would fold here. I don't start worrying about stealing the blinds until the blinds are at 50/100. This is when I change gears and become more aggressive. Eight-handed, in middle position, you can't withstand a raise with KQo given your stack size.

Another factor no one has touched on is the two short stacks behind you. If you were to limp here, there would be 3.5 bb's in the pot, which may be enough incentive for either short stack to push with any Ace, pair, K/J, or Q/J. If they do push and it's folded around to you, you're going to have no idea where you're at. I think it would be incorrect to gamble with over half your stack in this situation.

If you're going to play KQo in this situation, I think you have to raise. By raising you'll gain information, and could possibly win the pot outright. IMO, limping is the worst possible move.

[ChrisV]

I don't understand why everyone is talking about the Q9x flop. The point of the person who brought that up was that even your dream flops aren't really that dreamy. Imagine you get called by someone with position and the flop comes 842, two of a suit. There's somewhere around 4-500 in the pot. What now?

[HoldingFolding]

[It would certainly help if the hand history was set out a little more clearly]

This is table specific, but in a typically passive PP $20 SnG, I believe a attempted steal will be the most +EV move.

At the 50BB level nobody is yet in stealing mode, the early limp is likely to be a low pocket pair or suited connectors - anything decent and they would have raised (aside from AA /images/graemlins/smile.gif). Any sort of aggressiveness and they're out. At this point of the game SB & BB will likely put you on a hand and fold. This will happen 75% of the time. On the occasions you get called, a pot sized bet at a non-scarey board will bring it down - remember they still think you've got a premium hand. I'd say at the most 1 in 20 times you'll end up losing half or all your stack.

[Strollen]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine you get called by someone with position and the flop comes 842, two of a suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd think you'd check but you certainly could bet the pot or push representing a higher pair. An 842 flop helps about 20% of the hands people claim are the only ones which would call a 3xBB raise. The KJ, K10, QJ, Q10suited etc and even the AXs aren't in a much better situation than you unless they are the right suit.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Imagine you get called by someone with position and the flop comes 842, two of a suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd think you'd check but you certainly could bet the pot or push representing a higher pair. An 842 flop helps about 20% of the hands people claim are the only ones which would call a 3xBB raise. The KJ, K10, QJ, Q10suited etc and even the AXs aren't in a much better situation than you unless they are the right suit.

[/ QUOTE ]


Someone with an 8 or pp calls and your tourney is over. The only thing worse than not hitting KQ AK or AQ is trying to win the pot afterwards.

[MrMon]

I don't know what game you guys play in, or if you're just messing with pshrek's head, but I've spent the better part of two hours looking at actual data of my play with KQo, and I just can't turn it into a losing hand at any position or blind level. It's not AA, but it's pretty good.

Maybe it's because I play at Paradise, not Party, so I've got more chips to work with, but here's my data (mostly $20 SnGs):

All Blinds:
All # of Players
Hands 242
Win 55.4%
VP$IP 92.2%
BB/hand 0.63
W$SD 46.9%

7-9 Players
Hands 94
Win 46.8%
VP$IP 91.5%
BB/hand 1.43
W$SD 42.9%


Random Hand BB/hand: 0.12

No, it doesn't win all the time, so I went to see what it lost to. Most of the time it lost to simply not catching a K or Q. Showdowns lost tend to be all-in again small stacks, so I'm not marrying the hand or playing it for overcard value. Very rarely will it lose to AK or AQ. I tend to raise to 3xBB, and the calls are generally much weaker hands. This is $20+$2 SnGs, not WPT.

If you guys want to fold KQo in middle position with no prior show of strength, be my guest. I would raise here, and make it look like every other raise.

[esbesb]

Amen, my mon.

[Bigwig]

One other thing with regards to limping. When I limp, I'm always doing it with the intention of hitting a 'big' hand and taking down a large pot. I'll settle for a small win, but limping is NEVER +EV outside of the SB without the promise of occasionally catching a flop like 9TJ with KQ. Then you take all the chips of the guy who limped with JT. As long as you know when to let go of a hand that could very be beat, I see no danger. Sometimes I wonder if people around here are a bit nervous about playing after the flop.

[Scuba Chuck]

I haven't finished reading this entire thread, but a funny thing happened while I was reading...
I got KQo. in the exact same scenario. One off CO, 9 players left though. I am (was) the big stack at only 1100 chips. 25/50 blinds. This is normally a fold for me, but... (I am reading this damn post)

BB checks and UTG already called, so it's just us 3.

Flop is Q /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif
175 chips in the pot

checked to me... What do I do?
I'm reading this damn thread, so I bet pot. I get raised what I bet (quickly).

I table talk a little, then fold.
He shows me AQ. Just another healthy reminder why I don't play KQo.

[Strollen]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone with an 8 or pp calls and your tourney is over. The only thing worse than not hitting KQ AK or AQ is trying to win the pot afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is why I said I'd check. The fold KQo crowd can't have it both ways. You can't say that only premium hands like AQ or KJs or QJs suited would call a 3x raise to show that KQ isn't such a good hand and then say if you miss the flop that A8 or 98 or small pocket pair is going to beat you.

Against a single caller I think a KQ is a slight favorite to be the top hand with an 8 4 2 two suited flop.

[stillnotking]

100% agree with this. I can't believe people are talking about folding this hand. My advice is put in a standard 3-4xBB raise and bet the pot on the flop if: a) you get no more than 2 callers and b) the flop is not terrible for your hand (such as 3 suited cards not of one of your suits, Axx, 789, etc.).

I don't understand the paranoia about being dominated by AK or AQ. That may be a good reason not to call a raise with KQ, but it is certainly not a good reason not to raise with it.

If you get reraised big, dump the hand. This is still fine as long as you would make the same size raise with AA or KK.