Playing split aces.

[BeerMoney]

Let's say the bring in is on your right and you have split aces. Do you raise the bring in? Or do you wait for a later street to pop it?

Here are the problems I see:
1.) If you raise, you probably won't force anybody out.
2.) If you wait, you are likely going to be betting first on following rounds cause you have the ace showing.

The good point about raising is that you most likely have the best hand, and are charging others. However, you are creating a big pot and the whole "making your opponents play correctly on later streets" thing.

What is your strategy?

[cepstrum]

Hi BeerMoney -

how big is the ante? how big is the bringin? what is your kicker? how live are your aces, your kicker, and any associated draws you might have? what are the other cards that are out? how likely are your opponents to think you are trying to steal? how likely are your opponents to bet into an ace on a later street?

the fact is that i don't limp with those aces very often. but when i do, it's because the answers to those questions i just asked aren't favorable.

cepstrum

[eh923]

This is a joke, right?

[nate1729]

Hey, be nice. BeerMoney: I think Sklansky et al. have pretty definitively established that raising is almost always correct. Of course, you need to mix up your game some, but just about always raise. (Oh, and re: making them play correctly on later streets... why let them play correctly, crucially, on third?)

You should also, remember, be raising with quite a few hands that have an ace in the door that are not aces. *That's* where most of your ace-deception comes in.

--Nate

[Nick_Foxx]

hes not joking at all

he's the same jackass who slowplays buried pairs in stud because he thinks its a waste to just win the antes

how should you play your split aces? how about limp in, then check-call on every street and then grumble how 3 different people outdrew you by the river

mike

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]

Let's say the bring in is on your right and you have split aces. Do you raise the bring in? Or do you wait for a later street to pop it?

Here are the problems I see:
1.) If you raise, you probably won't force anybody out.
2.) If you wait, you are likely going to be betting first on following rounds cause you have the ace showing.

The good point about raising is that you most likely have the best hand, and are charging others. However, you are creating a big pot and the whole "making your opponents play correctly on later streets" thing.

What is your strategy?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can wait to raise. While in a low limit game you are not going to get a heads up hand by raising, I dont think you can say that it won't force anyone out. It may force out stronger players who you should be more concerned about anyway, and it is still better to play against say 4 players then 7-8. Raising will also make your hand appear stronger and if you pair your board you may be able to get some of the drawing hands out that will beat you on the river. In addition to getting more money in the pot when your aces hold up. The only time I could see limping with this hand is if your other aces are dead

[Minnow]

In this particular situation: Raise
If both aces are out and there is more than one opponent behind you: Pass

[Andy B]

I raise essentially every time. If they fold, great. If they call, great. I see it as win-win.

[aLOWdAkING]

You want to limit the field to as small as possible. Raise.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
hes not joking at all

he's the same jackass who slowplays buried pairs in stud because he thinks its a waste to just win the antes

how should you play your split aces? how about limp in, then check-call on every street and then grumble how 3 different people outdrew you by the river

mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry douchebag, I was just trying to get some discussion on something that I didn't realize was that obvious. Timmer, someone who I consider to know the game on a deeper level made a comment when I said playing a flush draw was straightforward that got me thinking.
He said "The Oh, I have aces, so I always raise mentality...."

And, in fact I've played with other people from this very forum who crush online stud games, and asked them what they had after raising the bring in in late position with an ace showing..

Me: Did you have the aces?
Them: No. Three flush. I don't like to raise aces from late position.

Its my understanding that 7 stud is a game of knocking people out of pots. This becomes a challenge if people are calling off a lot of bets on early streets. So, in closing, blow me.

[eh923]

The example from your original post was quite a bit different than the one you describe here...
[ QUOTE ]
Me: Did you have the aces?
Them: No. Three flush. I don't like to raise aces from late position.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the original post, you were first to act after the bring-in. Here, raising is a no-brainer. As other posters have said, playing Aces against a few players is much more likely to win than playing in a family pot.

In the second example, I get the feeling that there were a lot of limpers. We can save the debate for later about raising Aces there...but raising a big 3-flush is also a no-brainer since it plays well against many opponents.

Anyway, I'm not going to blow you (hopefully, you weren't offering to me). I will say that raising Aces in early position is kind of automatic...but that you also need to raise OTHER EP holdings with an A showing so they can't put you on a hand.

[Michael Emery]

Are you refering to raising after several people have called in front of you and your next to the BI Beer? I'll assume you are and will give my thoughts on this type of situation. As we know this type of thing comes up frequently.
You brought up the point of making the pot bigger with a completion on 3rd. This of course in many situations will encourage your opposition to go further with the hand and play closer to correctly in doing so due to the large pot, even though they do have a worse hand than yours. This is one reason to strongly consider just limping. If your sure someone will bet on 4th (perhaps they caught well or are very aggressive) than you can check raise on 4th street. If not just bet out. With less money in the pot (due to you just limping) 4th street wont be a crap shoot and if your opponent(s) call they'll usually be incorrect to do so. And as we all know poker is a game of forcing people to make mistakes.
Now with all that just said, there are a lot of situations (mostly at the lower limits) where you lose to much by not raising. Lets say you are in a wild online 5-10 game. The first player limps, next two fold, next three players limp. You also know these last limpers would play practically any hand here for the bring-in. This includes hands like (69)7 off, (38)3, (9 J) K off, and the like. You lose to much by not raising! In this situation you are not in a tight 30-60 game where soild players have limped with hands that make sense. These people have limped with such marginal (sometimes hideous) starting hands you must punish them right away even if you make the pot larger. Like all situations many factors must be brought into play and analyzed to come to the correct conclusion. Hope this helped Beer.

Mike Emery

[BeerMoney]

I'm a MORON. I meant to say the bring in is on your left!!

Now can we discuss this?!?

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
In the second example, I get the feeling that there were a lot of limpers. We can save the debate for later about raising Aces there

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was talking about. And no, please don't blow me. I was referring to Nick Boxx.

[Nick_Foxx]

hey good enough this is a forum, we don't have to like each other... i may not have a "deep understanding" of the game like andy and some of the other posters (for whom i have nothing but respect although i sometimes disagree with their suggestions), but let me put it this way... your question of whether to raise split aces under the gun clearly shows you don't even have a RUDIMENTARY understanding of the game.

mike

[BeerMoney]

See correction.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
your question of whether to raise split aces under the gun clearly shows you don't even have a RUDIMENTARY understanding of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to butt in, but I'm a total beginner at stud (played in a casino for the 2nd time last night; also have played a little bit in a home game in a HORSE rotation). I find these rudimentary discussions to be useful. Am I in the wrong place? Do beginning stud questions belong in the beginners forum?

I've just found the Other Poker forum to be a whole lot less ornery about basic questions related to, say, Omaha 8.

[Andy B]

No.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I still say you have a raise for value. Despite what some people seem to think, Aces-up will win more than its share in a multi-way pot. It's better if it's two or three ways, but still worth a raise if everyone is in. I'm raising a lot of Ace-high three-flushes in this spot, too, so I'm not giving my hand away by any means.

Nothing like a good I-eat-players-like-you-for-breakfast thread. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Minnow]

I asked myself that question too when I first starting posting my beginner stud type questions here last spring. Up to this point it hasnt been a problem. No-one has told me to get lost and come back after I've mastered 7CSFAP or TOP or play regularly in 30-60 games. This is where the stud players hang out. There's not a lot of them relative to Hold-em in particular, so that's partly why I think they are tolerant of anyone who has an interest in learning the game. I've never posted my beginner stud questions in the beginner forum because I assumed no stud players hung out there. And frankly I think I'm right. At least not the experienced ones who are more likely to have the best and most relevant responses.

[jon_1van]

I very likely raise in this spot because many of the same people will fold if they brick out on 4th.

Maybe you get lucky and someone reraises to push people out.

It is true that AA plays best (highest EV) with few opponents. But if having those opponents is a given, your best play is to raise because you are winning more than your fair share of pots.

So when you are in late position and a bunch of people called...having those opponents is a given...and so you must raise.

P.S. About this whole "making your opponents play more correct on later streets" buisness. I would love to see a detail analysis of a single hand where not raising with the best hand gave a higher EV. I'm sure you can reduce your varience by a huge amount. But I just have a hard time assuming you are hurting yourself by making these raises. So for now....SHOW ME.

I'm putting a post in POKER THEORY about this

[jon_1van]

The hands that are typically review in this forum range from .50/1.00 to 20/40 and rarely above. So if we respond to posts about .5/1.00 hands I'm sure we'll respond as best we can to a honest beginner question.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the second example, I get the feeling that there were a lot of limpers. We can save the debate for later about raising Aces there

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was talking about. And no, please don't blow me. I was referring to Nick Boxx.

[/ QUOTE ]

HOw do you know there are a lot of limpers if you are in 1st position? If you can see into the future that would definitely be a strong edge in this game.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
I very likely raise in this spot because many of the same people will fold if they brick out on 4th.

Maybe you get lucky and someone reraises to push people out.

It is true that AA plays best (highest EV) with few opponents. But if having those opponents is a given, your best play is to raise because you are winning more than your fair share of pots.

So when you are in late position and a bunch of people called...having those opponents is a given...and so you must raise.

P.S. About this whole "making your opponents play more correct on later streets" buisness. I would love to see a detail analysis of a single hand where not raising with the best hand gave a higher EV. I'm sure you can reduce your varience by a huge amount. But I just have a hard time assuming you are hurting yourself by making these raises. So for now....SHOW ME.

I'm putting a post in POKER THEORY about this

[/ QUOTE ]

I think more to the point is that at a lower limit table, people aren't even considering that they are now correct to chase because of the pot odds in a raised pot. Since it won't even cross their minds, it is not as big a consideration....

[Andy B]

People are going to chase whether it's correct to or not. The point is that sometimes, when you make the pot bigger by raising, you are now making them play correctly by accident. You profit from your opponent's mistakes.

[FeliciaLee]

This is the Stud forum, not the Zoo, better known as "flamers-r-us." We have always been cool, because we are such studs /images/graemlins/grin.gif

No need to flame anyone here!

Beginners are welcome, and we even let Ray Zee post sometimes /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The great thing is that you are thinking about Stud, and asking these questions. Thinking deeply about poker is never a bad thing.

Yes, raise /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jon_1van]

I realize that the opponent will now play correct because the pot is bigger.

But that doesn't mean that your EV went down because of the raise.

Assume I check or call instead of raise on 4th. I have forgone a certain fraction of each bet that would have gone in the pot. So if there were 3 players (2 + me) and I was going to win 50% of the time I lost 1/2 a bet in EV.

So where am I gonna make or save 1/2 a bet or more later in the hand. Remember, I have to make/save at least this 1/2 bet frequently enough that it was still +EV to check or call instead of raise.

So where am a saving or making an extra 1/2 bet from the call stations that this play is designed for?

Lets Assume I have 2KKQ my opponents have XX4J and XX8A but because they play poorly I can assume something like 944J and 388A. On 4th street there is 19 in the pot (2 ante , 2 bring in, 15 from 3rd). But I check my high pair on 4th.

53.3% of the time we will all brick on 5th and if I bet the first caller will be making a small mistake and the 2nd caller will be right (48.93 , 21.90 , 29.16 percent chance for each person to win)

12.1% of the time I will improve yet neither of my opponents will and yes they will be making a large mistake by calling. But that will be true whether or not there is 19 or 34 dollars in the pot.

27.7% on the time at least 1 of the opponents will improve and I wont. And depending on just how they improve I may still have the odds to call down regardless of whether a raise was put in on 4th. So at most I can save my small bet 27.7% of the time but it will probably happen less than this because sometimes I will call down.

[timmer]

Yeah I might just call with the dead aces and see what develops. Much depends on the texture of my kicker and the board . the opponents and structure. My relative position to the next most likely bettor.

[SA125]

I think the problem with your question is your assumption that raising UTG with an A up will build a big pot.

There's 2 factors you don't seem to be considering, yet they matter very much.

First is what kind of opponents you have and how the table is playing. You won't get a big pot if you have a table full of rocks. You will if they're a bunch of agro's.

Second is what image they have of you. If you're a rock, they'll respect it and need a hand to call. If you're loose, they'll call with less.

So learn what your image is (based on how they react to your raises) and use that info to your advantage.

That's the long answer. The short one is raise.