Pot-Limit Hand from last night

I was playing in a pot-limit tournament last night when the following hand took place. It was relatively early in the tourney (few ppl had busted out), and the blinds were 25/50. I was one off the button, and the player UTG immediatley pot-raises. His stack size before the raise was around T1400, and my stack was T650. Everyone folded to me, and my cards were QQ.


Now comes the first question, as in what should I consider here before making a decision. This was the fist time I had seen this player raise UTG. He was playing somewhat loose (I had seen him call an unraised pot pre-flop with A7o, hit an A on the flop and then turn his 7 to win a fair pot), but he was folding enough hands pre-flop that I didn't see him as a maniac. The table itself was fairly tight with realtively few showdowns. As for myself, I had entered very few pots; hence I assume most of the players at my table would consider me fairly tight, and likely not too agressive (I haven't played many pot-limit tournaments and I know I need more experience).


My thinking was, he has a fairly good hand, but is hoping to take the blinds and run. I thought about what to do for some time and finally I called his raise, and the button and blinds folded out as I expected.


Flop comes T 2 2 with no flush. UTG bets pot again and this would put me all-in very early in tournament. The second question is what to do now.


Basically I am wondering if pre-flop I should have raised back, just called like I did (I now doubt that was correct), or folded. And after the flop, should I fold out or call it all-in. I will provide the results a bit later.

When it's T175 to you and you have T650 left, this an all-in or muck situation. Calling is clearly the worst option with a made hand. Since you described him as loose but capable to fold a hand, I'd push in.

Since you called and got the best flop you could hope for (short of a set), you are more or less commited to the hand.


cu


Ignatius

Basically this depends on the player yo are against. You said he played A7 but you gave no indication of what types of hands he would raise with in early position. If you think it is only woith hands that he would call a raise with (ie AA, KK, QQ,AK, JJ) Then calling is not bad.


Put it this way if he has AK and will call your all in, you would much rather not go all in here. Wait until the flop then get it all in if there is no ace or king. If there is an ace or king on the flop you can get away from the hand (of course you may get outplayed by a guy with JJ, but I will take that risk.


If OTH the guy could be raising with hands like A-J, or 99 which he would fold to a re-raise, then you must re-raise to not give him the chance to flop a set.


once you called to see the flop, you have to raise the flop when it is rags.

"Calling is clearly the worst option "


Why ? Please clarify this for me just a little further :-)


Andy.

I will post the results of my hand in my next post, however first, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who had a hand very similar to mine, but the betting went a bit different, and I wondered if these differences would change any of the decision-making process.


The situation is the same, but let's say that UTG's stack and my own are significantly higher and the blinds are a much lower % of our overall stacks. UTG raises pot (and is a similar player to the one I described) and, as this is the first time we've seen him raise from an early position, we don't know his raising standards (although let's say he has made a couple of loose calls in unraised pots like the guy in my original post). I am one off the button, and it is folded to me, and I have QQ. This time I decide to raise pot back, which would leave me with about 75% of my stack left. All fold back to UTG, who has about 2x my stack. He re-rasies the pot back at me. In order to call this raise, I would be left with say about 25% of my stack.


What considerations go into the decision making now? It is still early in the tournament, perhaps too early to be risking this much of my stack?


Also, for the sake of argument, let's say I call the re-raise. Flop is ragged, let's say T 2 2 no-flush like my original hand, and UTG bets pot, which would put me all-in. I would be left with 25% of my original stack if I fold. Again, what goes into making this decision (if indeed there is a decision at this point).


Thank you all for your input, I will post the results of my original hand in next post.

Here we go:


After the T 2 2 flop, and UTG's pot-bet, I felt I pretty much had to call at this point, esp. given there was no A or K on the flop. I was very much hoping, both pre-flop and after that he was betting a hand like AK, or maybe even a worse hand like AQs, AJs, or a lower PP than my own. I was afraid, of course, of KK or AA.


I called, the cards were flipped and he showed AK. The last 2 cards were blanks, and I took the pot. My opponent told me "That was a good call". The results were good, but I was not sure that I thought this through correctly or that I had considered everything before making my play. Thanks for everyone's input.

I know we had this discussion before, but anyway here's again my take on the situation:


I think we both agree that he has to muck preflop when he thinks that UTG would only raise here with JJ-AA and AK (not enough implied odds to go for a set, negative implied odds to call and play for pair-value and too marginal to push in on a coin-flip for half the blind money, since a better hand might still come in behind).


So let's assume that UTG might also raise with a lesser hand like medium pair, AQ or a suited ace. In that case, your queens are ahead most of the time, but if you just call, he could easily get away from his lesser holdings unless he hits, while you would still pay him off when he does have AA or KK. If you plan on folding unless you flop an overpair, you will often fold a winner, esp. when the flop comes king-high and UTG is aggressive and would bet out with 2nd pair or middle/bottom pair + ace overcard.


All in all, I think that the rare opportunities where you will be able to correctly lay down on the flop will not even begin to make up for the times you fold a winner and the lost profit when UTG can get away from the hand.


cu


Ignatius

Now I'm even more sure that calling is correct :-).


All your points about allowing your opponent to get away from his hand apply just as much before the flop. More. If our opponent's raising hands are 99-AA, AK, AQ, plus some suited Aces, how can he make a mistake if you raise pre-flop ? He will play back with AA, KK and AK and dump the rest. You might get called with JJ once in a while if you're lucky.


And if he's aggressive and will bet out with 2nd pair and the like - even better ! Flat call and let him go at it on the flop. If I know he's going to bluff that much I'll call even if it's King high. Remember his raising hands : 99-AA, AK, AQ, A-suited. How many of those are beating me on a Kxx flop ?


Basically if we call and an Ace flops, we can be confident we are behind if our opponent bets. It takes a brave man to bluff into an Ace high flop with TT after his pre-flop raise has been called. If an Ace doesn't flop we can be just as confident we are ahead. Then he can bluff as much as he likes.


By re-raising pre-flop you are missing out on three extremely profitable scenarios : 1) he decides to bluff when there is no Ace on the flop ; 2) The flop contains an Ace and a Queen ; 3) He has a smaller pair than you and the flop is undercards to you both. Who's going to get away from JJ on a flop 732, first to act ? A better player than me.


If you are up against an aggressive opponent, don't try to out-aggress him all the time. Sometimes use his aggression against him.


Andy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>J Hunter wrote- "The situation is the same, but let's say that UTG's stack and my own are significantly higher and the blinds are a much lower % of our overall stacks. UTG raises pot (and is a similar player to the one I described) and, as this is the first time we've seen him raise from an early position, we don't know his raising standards (although let's say he has made a couple of loose calls in unraised pots like the guy in my original post). I am one off the button, and it is folded to me, and I have QQ. This time I decide to raise pot back, which would leave me with about 75% of my stack left. All fold back to UTG, who has about 2x my stack. He re-rasies the pot back at me. In order to call this raise, I would be left with say about 25% of my stack.


Also, for the sake of argument, let's say I call the re-raise. Flop is ragged, let's say T 2 2 no-flush like my original hand, and UTG bets pot, which would put me all-in. I would be left with 25% of my original stack if I fold. Again, what goes into making this decision (if indeed there is a decision at this point)."</BLOCKQUOTE>


My reply- This situation is much more different to your first situation. Here the stacks are very deep. With QQ, I think it would be best to just call the raise preflop and try to flop a set. You also have options when you miss the set. Implied odds are the difference between the 2 situations.


Assuming you did re-raise and the UTG re-raised the pot back, then the fact that the stacks are deep also give this a different meaning compared to when his reraise would be all-in and smaller than a full size raise. You have shown strength by reraising an UTG raiser, when he reraises he is telling you that he thinks his hand is superior to yours. He is indicating that he has AA or KK and it would be best to fold your QQ.


If you did make the mistake of calling then you are committed to putting the rest in on the flop regardless of what comes. This is because you have committed 75% of your stack preflop. In fact, if you did decide to play in this situation, then you should shove it all-in rather than just call and have 25% of your stack left.

> He will play back with AA, KK and AK and dump the rest.


There will be T900 in the pot (assuming the blinds fold) when it gets to him and it will cost T475 to call. A suited ace (AQs and below) is only a 2:1 dog against queens, so calling is basically a break even play for him and you want him to muck. You definitely want him to muck KQs which actually is +EV (T10.91) to call here even though it's dominated.


The only hands which are more than a -T100 dog (EV-wise) are smaller pairs and suited connectors, but those are exactly the hands which would profit the most from the implied odds when you flat call; also there's still a good chance that he will call an all-in raise with a medium pair (and certainly w/ JJ) if he thinks that there's a better than even chance that you just hold overcards.


cu


Ignatius