Commerce 4-8

[The Dude]

I just remembered a hand that I played the other day with a friend at Commerce. EP seemed a little over aggro preflop, but fairly decent postflop.

UTG limps, EP raises, MP coldcalls, button coldcall, I 3-bet in the SB w/ A/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif. BB folds, UTG folds, everyone else calls.

Flop: (13 SBs) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 Players)</font>
The Dude bets, EP calls, MP calls, button raises. The Dude calls, everyone calls

Turn: (10.5 BBs) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 Players)</font>
Checked to the button who bets, The Dude raises. EP and MP fold, button calls.

River: (14.5 BBs) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 Players)</font>
The Dude checks...

[Rico Suave]

The Dude:

This looks almost exactly like an online 2/4 hand Clarkmeister posted several months ago (cannot find the hand). With the pot so large, I imagine the button does not have to be betting a flush draw on the turn very often to make this turn play correct.

--Rico

[The Dude]

Hmmm. I'd be interested in reading that post. Do you have any idea what month it was posted in?

[Rico Suave]

the Dude:

I really have no idea..but I think it was at least 6 months old. If I remember correctly, the hand played very close to this one. Hero had AK and the button raised a 2-tone flop, and Clarkmeister c/r the turn on a blank...very similar to this.

If I remember correctly, the discussion boiled down to the fact that many players would continue to bet the flush draw even on the turn, especially online. So, if you consider the size of the pot, the chance that you might still be best, and the chance that an A or K is good, the raise is correct.

Also, there was some discussion on whether to call a river bet. I think the consensus that the majority of the time you would not be faced with a river bet, even if he had a pair, as your aggression throughout the hand would most likely keep him in check.

Again, this is from a long time ago, and I could be completely wrong.....


--Rico

[Entity]

Dude,

Interesting hand.


This is the link to Clarkmeister's hand. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=791991&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1)

I like the idea -- will be interested to see how it played out this time.

Rob

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]

This is the link to Clarkmeister's hand.

I like the idea -- will be interested to see how it played out this time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice! I wouldn't have posted this hand if I knew Clark's was out there. Villian checked behind and quickly turned over my AK expecting the pot. My friend gave me a WTF look, but button just shook his head and mucked. EP grumbled something about folding his pocket pair.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the idea -- will be interested to see how it played out this time.

[/ QUOTE ]
I played a very similar hand this summer. I had raised UTG and gotten like 3 coldcallers plus blinds. I pulled the same check-raise on the button after the blinds folded on the turn, and both players in between us dumped. I check-folded the river flush card, though.

I was playing 3-6 with a friend I was teaching the game to, and he was completely confused by my line. Over the next two weeks when I would tell him to slow the heck down with AK unimproved, he would always site that hand! It actually made me wish I didn't make that play, even though I knew it was the right one.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is the link to Clarkmeister's hand.

I like the idea -- will be interested to see how it played out this time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice! I wouldn't have posted this hand if I knew Clark's was out there. Villian checked behind and quickly turned over my AK expecting the pot. My friend gave me a WTF look, but button just shook his head and mucked. EP grumbled something about folding his pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
How much more often do you see people betting their flush draws on the turn than taking the free card?

I've had few situations where I know this would work online, but I'm only now moving up to 2/4 and other small stakes limits where this might apply.

Rob

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
If I remember correctly, the hand played very close to this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in Clark's hand there was no PF raise before Clark raised from the blind, in comparison to Dude's hand, where there was a raise and numerous coldcalls. Dude would need to have figured out from being at the table whether the button was the type of player to coldcall with two suited cards and then raise a PF raiser and two others with a draw on the flop.

[nolanfan34]

Are you calling a river bet here?

I can't imagine making this play on the turn, as it would feel like chip spewing to me. Interesting line and read though. I think you'd have to be at a table where people will lay down their hands post-flop though. Some of the 3-6 and 4-8 games I've played in, the guy with the pocket pair wouldn't have folded, and you're going to need to spike and A or K on the river to win.

I like the line of thought though, I'll have to remember it.

[krishanleong]

This thread and Clarks thread are definitely some of the densest threads I've seen here. Wow, so much to consider. Thanks Dude, Ed, and Clark.

Krishan