Flopped baby flush, board pairs and someone rises

[Abelardo]

Hi, I don't know how I should play this I was on the BB with 2 suited cards, I got no reads I've just been playing for about 10 hands on that table, so here it is:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (13.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 16.25 BB, between UTG+2, Button and Hero.</font>


I called preflop because riser got a few callers and it would cost me just 0.50 instead of 1, on the flop I bet hoping to knock high /images/graemlins/club.gif cards I was out of position so I couldn't rise (check-rise maybe?). On the turn board pairs and someone rised my bet so I knew I was in trouble, but the pot was big enough so I called until the end. I don't know if this is the correct way to play on this situation so I posted the hand.


Abelardo

[Shillx]

I would reraise the turn. You might not have the best hand, but a lot of river cards can kill your hand. Charge them to draw on the turn when they have slim odds (any single club only has 7 outs eventhough they think they have 9).

Brad

[cockandbull]

I'd check raise the flop, your going to get a bet from at least the K/A /images/graemlins/club.gif and this will give you a good chance of folding out the 8/9/T/J/Q /images/graemlins/club.gif. I'd then lead the turn and 3 bet, and then check and call the river.

[ErrantNight]

flop bet is fine.

3-bet the turn.

[Shillx]

Going for a flop check/raise is bad for 2 reasons.

The small chance that it gets checked through (which it might considering this board, don't expect the PFR to auto bet).

I'll let you figure out the other reason. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Shill

[Abelardo]

Maybe I should make it clear that I fopped the flush by check-rising on the flop, I'll try it next time. But then what happens if you check-rise then someone rised your turn bet? Can oponents be that dumb and rise with less than a full house? I was in check/call mode after that rise by the button fearing the boat or (possibly) a slowplayed /images/graemlins/club.gif suited hand... So in sum, I must still try to knock the other guys even when I suspect I might not have the best hand?


Abelardo

[ErrantNight]

the point is that you don't want them to know you have a flush. otherwise they'd be correct to fold.

a board pairing does not mean a boat is around. even when you have a flush. even if this always happens to you.

and it's RAISE not rise, my friend.

you're seeing monsters under the bed. they usually aren't there, and they're never worth being afraid of.

[Abelardo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll let you figure out the other reason. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Would you let me know? /images/graemlins/confused.gif


Abelardo

[Shillx]

Ok. So lets say that you check and the guy on your left bets. Then lets say that everyone calls and you raise. What you have done is trap people in the middle with potential hands like J /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You want these hands out. Anyone with a big club (the Ace or King) isn't going to fold during this hand. What you are looking to do is get out smaller clubs that are larger then your 7/images/graemlins/club.gif. The best way to go about this is by betting the flop and hoping that the pre-flop raiser raises your bet.

Brad

[Abelardo]

Maybe I am seeing monsters, maybe it's because I've seen it happen a few times, the passive guy raises as the board pairs on the turn (or river) when a flush seems to be evident, I can only think boat or quads, maybe I give too much credit to my opponents.

So back in the hand, I sould be going all the way to the SD with this flush (by betting making 3 bets and/or calling) unless a /images/graemlins/club.gif falls and there's some action, only then I go to check/call mode or just give it up?


Abelardo

[ErrantNight]

proceed cautiously on a paired board... but consider what possible holdings your opponents could, and more importantly: are likely, to have. not just what cards would make this board scary to you.

[Abelardo]

I'm aware I must knock as many drawing opponents as possible. In your example you assumed pfr would bet but that isn't sure so he might as well just check, and if it gets checked over well I've gained nothing, but if someone bets a fair hand in late position then I think I could use that info and then I can check-raise.

Either way you'll depend on the opponents actions, you bet so the pfr gets a chance to rise, or you check hoping someone bets but if it goes checked all the way that's a very bad situation. I might try both things in similar situations and see wich I like most.
Thanks for the replys guys, I really appreciate all the things I get from you all, muchas gracias. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Abelardo

[cockandbull]

I agree completely with your first reason, if this gets checked around its awful for heros hand. The second reason i'm not too sure about.

So lets say that you check and the guy on your left bets.

I'd say this is pretty likely if hero doesnt bet.

What you have done is trap people in the middle with potential hands like J T .

I don't think this is a bad thing, you've got people who are drawing thin paying 2 bets. Remember they dont know that you dont already have the A or K high flush. The turn card is very rarely going to give them a better hand. Lets say that the A or K is out, plus one other club higher than yours. That leaves then roughly one in 5/1 to hit the flush on the turn but once you lead out on the turn, they should fold fearing a strong flush. If they dont i'm not sure they're going to fold anyway.

Anyone with a big club (the Ace or King) isn't going to fold during this hand

i agree

The best way to go about this is by betting the flop and hoping that the pre-flop raiser raises your bet.

How often do you think the preflop raiser is going to have a hand that is good enough to raise heros bet. I'm not sure hes going to be rasing this too often.

Dude, feel free to take apart my thinking. When you have before it's improved my game no end.


Harry

[Abelardo]

Villian seems capable of thiking, what was my oponent thinking I had? Could he be thinking I had the flush? Or maybe he was thinking I flopped a set or an overparir and was playing fast before that 4th /images/graemlins/club.gif falls? A Villian with a flopped set thought I had a flush then he knew he could beat it if board paired, so he was drawing, or possibly he was slowplaying a flush himself and waited until the turn to raise for a BB and not a SB, that's all I can came up for now, maybe he had an overpair or 2 small pair, who knows.

What do you think the button has?


Abelardo

[Shillx]

Slowplaying a small flush is almost never correct. A lot of players who think they are sneaky will slowplay a small flush (like the hero has here) to see if their hand gets ruined on a later street. This idea is almost always wrong in a multiway pot because hands like J/images/graemlins/club.gifT will not always call a flop bet (and will almost always fold for 2 bets cold). Let's say for example that no A or K /images/graemlins/club.gif is out there but the T /images/graemlins/club.gif is. The hero will be very happy if this guy folds to his flop bet (he will almost always fold for 2 cold on the flop). A small flush has a lot of equity against all hands that don't hold a club, but even a hand like A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif can be a bitch to the hero. Betting USUALLY gets these types of hands out. Small flushes can get outdrawn so easily that they need to be played fast, and can rarely be raised for value (like a set for example). They are almost always raised for protection because single /images/graemlins/club.gif hands has 7 outs against it, so you need to try and get as many of these hands out as possible (you will never get the A or K out, but they might not be out there in the 1st place).

[cockandbull]

Is a check raise considered slowplay?

[Shillx]

I think that it is safe to say that you should always bet a small flush on the flop. Lets say for example that you are in the SB and the button raised PF. You flop a small flush. You should probably bet instead of going for a check/raise (you don't want it getting checked through). With a small flush the logic usually is, bet when checked to and raise when bet to.

[SB182]

since the button cold-called a raise a pocket pair or suited cards are certainly possible. but a raise on the turn is not proof enough that you are beat with your holding. you just see two pair or an overpair too often to not three bet in this spot. just remember that you can't be results oriented or fear monster hands.

sean

[Shillx]

So you actually do post here. I thought you just came to the 2+2 tables to take my money. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Shill

[cockandbull]

hands like JT will not always call a flop bet

I agree. Does it matter if the flop bet is from hero or preflop raiser? I understand what your saying, it's just the more and more i think about this the more and more i think a check raise is good, if you are 80/90% certain it will get a bet from somewhere!

[Shillx]

I really wish that others would give their opinions. You don't flop a flush very often, so it is not like you have the chance to make this mistake (either betting or check/raising) very often. Hopefully more will reply tomorrow. BTW I'm glad that someone appreciates my posts. I feel like I'm a lousey poster for whatever reason...

Shill

[cockandbull]

bumping this to see what people make of the conversation i had with shill.

[droolie]

In this example I think you should bet out. Check raising would be good if the pf raise came from the button. In this example it's likely UTG will raise your flop bet in effect accomplishing what a check raise would. This hand is very vulnerable so I think you need to pick the best way to protect it but there are no definite conclusions on the flop as to what that might be. I don't consider a check-raise a slowplay in this situation because if it gets checked through you can wait until the turn to push your edge if a non-club hits.

I would reraise the turn to try to get UTG to fold a lone /images/graemlins/club.gif. He probably won't fold the A /images/graemlins/club.gif but he might fold any of the others that beat you if a club hits the river. I go on the assumption that you're still ahead but the button made his trips with possibly A /images/graemlins/club.gif kicker.

I would be surpised if he made his boat on the turn. I think it's unlikely the button would slowplay a set on the flop with the three clubs on the board. He would likely want to raise to see how serious you are about the flush board. If he caps you should be very worried. If you're losing it's probably to a higher flush (or possibly a boat) which is bad but at least you have a one outer to the str8 flush which you could get unlimited action on the river with.

What do you do on the river if button only calls the turn reraise? Bet/call, check/call, check/raise?

[topspin]

I'd lean towards betting out too. People will be happy to call with all sorts of garbage on this flop (overcards, singleton /images/graemlins/club.gif, pair, etc) but they might not necessarily bet. Also, if you're lucky, someone will have two pair or better and help you pump the pot, and in these cases betting out is less likely to kill your action than a check-raise.

Oh, and FWIW I enjoy your posts too, even if I don't always agree /images/graemlins/grin.gif Between your comments and Rob's I think I've gotten a good start on cutting down on some of my looser calls.

[Abelardo]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do on the river if button only calls the turn reraise? Bet/call, check/call, check/raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd Bet/call, I would feel less worried because button didn't capped on the turn.

Thanks for your opinion, this doesn't happen often but it's good to know what to do.



Abelardo

[meep_42]

When I see this board, I think 2 things --

1. How can I get the most money in?
2. Can I actually river the 5/images/graemlins/club.gif?

With a vulnerable made hand you have 2 options:

1. Bet into the pf raiser and hope he protects your hand for you.
2. Wait until a safe turn and try to protect it there.

I'm not sure with your position it's possible to do the latter, so you need to bet and raise the flop and turn until someone else caps it.

-d