A 5-10 B&M hand against George Castanza.

[A_C_Slater]

MP2 just sat down so I have no specific reads, all I can really say is that he looks like George Castanza and he folded his first 7 hands (Unusually patient for Greektown 5-10 player.)

10 handed 5-6 avg. to the flop.

First three to act call, I call in MP1 with ATo (suits unimportant), MP2 raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, EP limpers call, hero calls.

8 handed!

Flop: K T x

The pot is friggin enormous, yet I know Castanza has me beat. First 3 check to me and I bet hoping Castanza will raise and thin the field. He does raise. MP3 folds, Button folds, BB calls (doh), UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls(no!), hero calls. --- 4 handed.

Turn: K T x 8


UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, Castanza bets, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls while praying for a ten.

River: K T x 8 x.

Hero checks, Castanza bets, Hero says to Castanza "I know i'm beat, but the pot is so huge" and calls, lamely hoping Castanza was betting unimproved AQ or 99.

Should I check/fold the flop? Check/call the flop?

Should I call the river If I have an overwhelming feeling of defeat? Would you auto call everytime just due to the enormous size of the pot?

[A_C_Slater]

Bumpity Bump bump.

[ErrantNight]

you think you're behind? from the flop? i think you can find a fold on the river unimproved, but the rest of the hand played out as well as you could imagine. you're out of position to isolate the preflop aggressor, but he happily obliges and clears up your outs (assuming you had any). you don't get to 'em... i think you're toast.

i might check the flop and call and see where i'm at since i don't know george well enough to know that he'll raise. or that more of the crowd won't stick around for the turn.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Does everyone agree with the flop bet? Although I think I likely would have check/called, I'm not sure of the correct play, so I'd like to hear others' opinions. The rest of the hand is fine, however I would never say "I know i'm beat, but the pot is so huge", because I don't feel the need to rationalize my moves nor do I want to educate that calling in a big pot is usually right.

[Justin A]

What outs are you trying to clear up by betting into the PFR?

Justin A

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
What outs are you trying to clear up by betting into the PFR?

Justin A

[/ QUOTE ]

Make hands like QT, JT, T9, fold so if a Q J or 9 hit the turn my middle pair will be good and not behind to a made two pair. This is what I was thinking, but I'm not claiming this is a good line, which is why I posted this, if I knew it was a good move there is nothing to discuss. In hindsight I think I should have just check/called the flop.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Make hands like QT, JT, T9, fold so if a Q J or 9 hit the turn my middle pair will be good and not behind to a made two pair. This is what I was thinking, but I'm not claiming this is a good line, which is why I posted this, if I knew it was a good move there is nothing to discuss. In hindsight I think I should have just check/called the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was an eight handed raised flop. With all of these apparently very lose players, none of them are folding a ten for two small bets. You're also not getting a fold from QJ for your ace outs.

The point is that since you think you're behind, you have two outs that are good most of the time, and a suspect three more since the raiser might have AK. With the exception of a QJ that won't fold anyway, the outs that improve your hand will not help other players, so knocking players out should not be your priority.

Btw, two small bets on the flop is not enough to fold out weak draws like bottom pair or a gutshot. Check/calling is better than betting there.

Justin A

[A_C_Slater]

Well said. I agree.

[private joker]

(To be sung like the "By Mennen" jingle):

"Co-stanza!"

P.S. George Costanza had a tail in SHALLOW HAL. (spoiler!)

[gamblore99]

Am I the only one who dislikes the preflop call?

I would either fold or raise Ato here, with a lean towards fold.

[A_C_Slater]

I considered folding after I saw the 3 limpers, but then I thought "No. don't be so weak tight." so I called. I hated this hand. It seemed like it was full of confusing borderline possibilities on every street except for the turn. Fold pre flop? Bet the flop? call the river?

[chesspain]

Fold preflop.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must respectfully disagree with my learned colleague. ATo plays well in this situation. This had been a hand I folded from everywhere. Now I play it in large fields and mid-late postion on.

Over the last 70K (with apologies to the sample size police) hands I've seen ATo 644 times, played it 62% of the time, raised 13%, and won with it 25% of the time. The number next to it is a nice mellow green, but it is not a terribly large number.

A few green hands I play at least some of the time that it earns MORE THAN include:

JKo
QJs
QJo
78s
67s
K9s
55
66

[Phil Van Sexton]

How profitable are you when getting ATo in MP after the first 3 players call? Obviously it doesn't matter since the sample size would be miniscule.

SSH says ATo doesnt play well in multiway pots. Not only that, but there are still 6 players left to act pre-flop. This is a fold.