another wait till turn raise

[jfletcher]

Let's debate this again.

I have 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on button. Seven people limp in to see the flop of 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. The BB bets on the flop and three middle players call, so I CALL. I am thinking that I am not going to force anyone out, and there are straight dangers, so if I get a safe turn card (not a 3, 6 or 7) I can make a double-sized raise. Seven people see the turn (14 SBs in pot) of 5/images/graemlins/club.gif. BB bets again, two limpers call, and I raise. All three call, so the pot is now 15 BBs. River is Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. BB bets into me again, limpers fold, I raise, he calls.

What do you think?

[mr pink]

i think it looks good, you really can't protect your hand here. raising this flop probably would have caused the "check to the raiser" mentality on the turn and cause you to miss some bets. it worked out nice here, really hit the jackpot on the turn huh? well played.

[pokerjunky]

I like it. It gives you a better chance to trap the players behind you for more money on the turn.

[btspider]

i don't like it. obviously you are passing up on a ton of immediate equity in hopes of making more on the turn.

what do you think BB is betting on the flop that he will bet again on the turn? the case 8? 99? 5x? what about when the inevitable overcard falls to 5x, will he bet again into a large field? will he bet a gushot or OESD again on the turn if he misses?

if you raise and a face card or Ace falls, maybe someone will pull a stop-n-go and you get the best of both worlds. i would need a stellar read on BB to do this here I think.

[flair1239]

I raise this on the flop until it's capped. You already have four people trapped for (2) bets. You really do not care in this situation if anybody folds or not. You are raising for value. As a matter of fact, you want the pot to be huge on the turn, so that they will pay you off looking for their gutshot.

Even if BB showed me a straight I would still raise as with four callers I would still be making money.

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
if you raise and a face card or Ace falls, maybe someone will pull a stop-n-go and you get the best of both worlds.

[/ QUOTE ]

highly doubtful IMO. the board is too coordinated. unless somebody flopped a straight, a raise on that flop is gonna kill the action.

[Shillx]

No bueno. Put raises in on the flop with sets (even more so when you can trap 3 or 4 people in the middle). Anyone drawing to an inside straight is going to call the flop raise, but maybe not the turn raise. Get the money while it is for the taking.

Shill

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you raise and a face card or Ace falls, maybe someone will pull a stop-n-go and you get the best of both worlds.

[/ QUOTE ]

highly doubtful IMO. the board is too coordinated. unless somebody flopped a straight, a raise on that flop is gonna kill the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are those three middle players calling with? You think they each have a solid piece of this flop?

This is the micros and the middle players are likely morons who are chasing. They will call flop bets but will not necessarily call a turn bet. Charge them while you can.

Edit: Seriously, these are the same idiots who call you all the way down with bottom pair and now that you have a great hand you're worried about killing the action?

[zram21]

You have a huge equity edge here you need to build this pot while people are willing to put money into the pot. Even if a scary card comes off and puts a 4 straight on the board you will still have 10 outs on the river to improve to the best hand.

Raise the flop.

[mr pink]

i changed my mind, raising the flop is probably best. i think i was being a little results oriented because it worked out on this hand.

[mr pink]

no way does someone sng on an ace though

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you raise and a face card or Ace falls, maybe someone will pull a stop-n-go and you get the best of both worlds.

[/ QUOTE ]

highly doubtful IMO. the board is too coordinated. unless somebody flopped a straight, a raise on that flop is gonna kill the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

How will it kill the action to force (4) players with 1-SB already in the pot, to add another SB?

Ecpecially at this level, very few people are going to fold to a raise when they already have money in the pot. Even if it gets three-bet behind you and a couple of them fold... who cares? There is no good reason not to raise this flop.

Another thing, at this level if there are 6 other people in the hand, chances are at least 3 of them are absolutely terrible, and would have no problem calling even 2-bets cold just to see if they catch their overcards.

[mr pink]

what i was saying was that no one is gonna reraise on that flop with less than a straight most of the time. if no one has the straight, they're all gonna check to you on the turn. thus killing said action.

[partygirluk]

The "wait till the turn" strategem works best when x "good" cards can fall and y "bad" card can fall, and Y is a high number and there is a big change in pot equity between x and y. I do no think this hand satisfies such criteria.

[jfletcher]

I disagree with the notion that they wouldn't call the turn raise. If I can get them already having put in one bet on the turn, most of them will throw in one more because they are all loose.

The way I saw it, if a bad card was goign to come (about a quarter of the deck, the 3s, 6s and 7s), it was goign to hurt me no matter what, because the same 7 people are going to see the turn if I raise or not.

Also, if the turn is not one of those bad cards, I can go from feeling pretty good about my hand to feeling VERY GOOD. The 5 was great, cuz it filled me up, but any overcard would have been good because one of those middle callers probably had overcards. I might have been able to 3-bet the turn if it had been an A and someone had AX.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I felt that if I raised the flop, it would be checked to me on the turn and then anyone without a very good draw would fold for that one turn bet.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
no way does someone sng on an ace though

[/ QUOTE ]

what if it gives them two pair?

the stop-n-go potential is like the 8th most important reason to raise the flop, so focus on the other reasons first. i also forgot to mention that someone may already have two pair or a weaker set and will 3-bet.

[btspider]

3's are total rags unless someone has A2.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
no way does someone sng on an ace though

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah?

Oh yeah, and raise preflop...