The 2/4 to 3/6 Jump

[Festus22]

Please indulge me as I know this topic has been discussed at length but I'd like an opinion from an EV perspective.

I just crossed the +400 BB milestone in 2/4 earnings. My win rate is 2.51 BB/100 and I have around 16K hands of 2/4 in PokerTracker (I've played more but lost a bunch of data when my old PC crashed). I'm pretty comfortable playing 4 tables now so on an hourly basis, it comes out to around $20/Hr.

Sooooo...do I make the jump to 3/6 because that's the next logical step? Play just one 3/6 table and maybe two 2/4's and really focus on the 3/6? Is it really worth it?

To maintain my hourly rate, I'd have to make about 2.5 BB/100 3-tabling or 1.66 BB/100 4 tabling. And that's just to break even. So in reality, I would need to make 2 BB/100 4-tabling to make it worthwhile.

My gut as well as a lot of posts here tells me 3/6 is more than 20% harder than 2/4 so the jump may not be +EV. Also, I don't think my 2.5 BB/100 rate at 2/4 is good enough to consider the move. My guess is that most of you successful 3/6 players beat the 2/4 game for higher than this.

So what does everyone think?

PS: I've also been playing a ton of 6-max games recently and although I'm just breaking even, it is helping my aggression a ton. Is this a good training ground prior to a 3/6 move?

[Phil Van Sexton]

I'm sure everyone is going to post that 16k is not enough hands to compute a true win rate, so don't think about this in such exact numbers. You have enough hands to be very sure that you are a winning 2/4 player, but not enough for an exact win rate.

3/6 may be a bit tougher, but the rake % is lower. I don't see any reason to stay at 2/4 if you have the bankroll for 3/6. I like your plan to start with only 1 table of 3/6 at first.

As for playing shortheaded to increase your aggression, I'm not sure what to make of that. Just play the same way you've been playing at 2/4 and adjust as you go. Some 3/6 tables will be aggressive, some won't....just like any level.

Good luck.

[JinX11]

Assuming you're playing PP...

I haven't noticed anything terribly different from 2/4 to 3/6, personally, though my win rate at 3/6 is about .5BB less than 2/4. I think table selection becomes a little more important and a little more difficult: whereas in 2/4 it's typical to find 7-8 tables with avg. pot size >= 9 BB, you may only find 3-4 such tables in 3/6. So, I routinely play some 2/4 tables, some 3/6 tables (and maybe a 5/10 or 10/20 table if I can find a table where the avg. pot size ~10BB).

Ultimately, the only way you're gonna find out if you should move up is to go play there. It sounds like you're giving your game a good bit of thought, so that's a good start. Now, go play some hands. Best of luck! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[JinX11]

Also, bdk plays 3/6 - you need to stay out of his way. Especially if the board pairs.

[smoore]

I'm learning limit poker on party after being a successful NL tournament player on pokerstars. Started at 1/2 to figure out multi tabling and blew through 2/4 (only about 1k hands there) when I figured out that the rake and small blind at 3/6 are significantly less. I'm bankrolled adequately for 5/10 but the play there is harder for me than 3/6, so I'm at my level for awhile.

All that said... you're beating 2/4 for $20/hr... that pays your bills I assume. I would say that when you feel like you're playing well you should try multi 3/6, if you feel like you may be playing your B game, drop back down. Nothing says you have to play the same limit every day or session. Personally, I wouldn't want to mix limits in the same session although I can't put my finger on WHY I feel that way.

[Chaos_ult]

My instinct tells me that you aren't ready to make the jump yet, and here's why:

You had to make a post asking if you should move up or not.

What it really all boils down to at this point (considering the caliber of posts that I have seen) is confidence. Do you feel comfortable at playing 3/6?

Take my advice with a grain of salt

Happy holidays,

Matt

[Sundevils21]

imo there is no difference at all between 2-4 and 3-6(much less 20%). My bb/100 actually was higher at 3-6. Then again I didn't play very many hands at 2-4, that was a quick jump in limits.

[Stupendous_Man]

For those that didn't stay at 2/4 long, how many tables did (and are) you playing? I've been 4 tabling 2/4 and have gone back and forth on whether I should get a 2nd monitor to move up to 6 tables (and possibly 8 at a future date) OR just move up limits to 3/6. Obviously, moving up limits now and getting a 2nd monitor later is another option. But, am curious how many people decided to increase # of tables before increasing limits.

[smoore]

I found four tables to be a little too hectic for me so I'm playing two. My decision to ditch 2/4 came from the rake and small blind savings. I don't play much in my SB, so the 1/3 Bblind is beneficial for me.

[colgin]

Festus,

Based on the quality of your posts as well as the results you have posted I am quite certain you will be a winning player at $3/6. Whether your overall earn will be immediately higher I cannot say. Since I don't know your personal situation I do not know how important it is for you to maximize this earn immediately (i.e., can you afford to make less per hour now if there is a benefit to come later, or do you really need to sustain a certain hourly earn). What I can say is that as a general matter I think players should take shots at the nextlevel whenever they have reason to believe they will succeed there AND they have a sufficient bankroll to weather any bad short-term swings. I thin you have both so it is worth at least taking a shot at $3/6. Making the move will also help to improve your game and keep developing as a player. In the long run you will have higher hourly earn as you become more and more successful at higher limits. You may want to transition to this move by playing a combination of limits rather than jumping completely to $3/6. That is up to you. Also, don't feel like you can't drop down if you don't feel comfortable for any reason or just if you are running bad off the start. It may take several shots before that is your default game but I am confiednt it will be soon.

Best of luck.

Colgin

[spydog]

I suggest you play 2 tables of 2/4 and 2 tables of 3/6. This is the equivalent to jumping up a half level.

If you've won 400BB at 2/4, I think you will have no problem making this 'half jump'.

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]
Making the move will also help to improve your game and keep developing as a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most important reason to move up. I'm not sure what your long term poker goals are, but if you plan to move up through the limits as high as you can go, then making the move to 3/6 even if you start out making less than 2/4 is still the right step.

Some people are perfectly content to take out some extra spending money from their 2/4 monthly winnings, but if you plan to move up and make the big $$$, than 3/6 is a great training ground to really find your game and become comfortable with all of the concepts. You end up in a decent number of 3-way and HU situations where your hand reading skills are tested and improved and the players are a little bit better than at 2/4.

Most of the respected players have gone through, if not are still at 3/6 and doing quite well.

My advice is to make the jump, and reap the benefits of improving your game. It will help you in the long run.

[Luke]

Festus,

I haven't played in either of those games in a while but my feeling is that if monetarily you'd be a wash playing 2/4 vs. 3/6, you should play 3/6.

The main reason being is that it is one step closer to a bigger game where the profit potential is certainly greater, assuming that is one of your goals.

If your goal is to just improve and expand your poker, then moving to 3/6 should help to accomplish that as well.

You have the skills, you have the bankroll, so just PLAY YOUR GAME and make the move.

gl,

Luke

[Victor]

Move up to 3-6 and forget about 2-4. You have plenty of bankroll and seem to play well enough due to your winrate and posts here.

IMO you should always play the highest limits you can afford. This increases your development as a player which is the most important reason to play. Some will argue that the most important reason to play is money, but I believe that an advanced player who can beat higher limits will make the most money.

So move up. Jump right and 4table.

The thing about 3-6 is that it is tighter and more aggressive. There are still plenty of idiots but the tend to be lags rather that loose passive. Sure, you can always find a couple lops at each table but its not near the amount at 2-4. Another frequent situation is playing heads up after the flop. In fact, if you play heads up after the flop well, you will make a lot at 3-6. It always amazes me how many people will call down or continue to bet with Ahigh or low pair.

[Lost Wages]

If you examine the question in a vacuum, then it probably doesn't make much difference which you do. You should expect your win rate to drop a little at 3/6 but of course you are playing higher stakes. Maybe you could make a bit more at 3/6, who knows?

But, you do not live in a vacuum. To answer the question, you need to know why you play and what your goals are.

Do you play only for fun? If that is the case then your answer is easy, do whatever is the most fun.

Do you aspire to become a full-time professional? In that case, you will certainly have to learn how to beat the bigger games at some point.

Do you rely on your part-time poker income to pay your mortgage? If so, then you be would have to be cautious with your bankroll.

For me (and I suspect most on this forum) the answer lies somewhere in between. I want to have fun, but I enjoy the extra income. If my bankroll was somehow wiped out, it wouldn't affect my personal finances. If you can give us a better idea of your situation, then perhaps we can better answer your question.

Lost Wages

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
For those that didn't stay at 2/4 long, how many tables did (and are) you playing? I've been 4 tabling 2/4 and have gone back and forth on whether I should get a 2nd monitor to move up to 6 tables (and possibly 8 at a future date) OR just move up limits to 3/6. Obviously, moving up limits now and getting a 2nd monitor later is another option. But, am curious how many people decided to increase # of tables before increasing limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was in the same dilemma as you at the start of November. I was beating 2/4 for over 3bb / 100 (4 tabling) in the prior 50,000 hands.

So my decision was whether to move up to 4-tabling 3/6 or 6-8 tabling 2/4. I chose the latter. And it turned out to be very successful for the month of November. I did maintain a 3bb / 100 winrate in over 40,000 hands.

Some cons I found with it however, I tend to get "player-read lazy".

I wasn't getting on this forum as much lately because when you have 8 tables beeping at you, all your focus stays there.

The pros were I got to see so many hands in such a short period of time, that I cannot imagine it not improving my game a bit.

Question for you though Stupendous. Why buy the second monitor when you can just ad more party skins? You may not be aware but there is a little registry trick to play more than 4 tables at a time with party software.

Btw- I think the decision I made does not apply to everyone. I have some excellent poker friends who have trouble playing even 4 tables. I'm not sure why some can handle it and some cannot. If you find 4 tabling at any limit too hectic, but you are still a winning player, I'd just suggest moving up to the next level.

[djoyce003]

I just started playing the 3/6 games on party, so maybe i'm not qualified to answer this yet, but i've found no appreciable difference between the level of play at 3/6 and at 2/4. In fact, sometimes it almost seems that the play is worse. Maybe im just getting better though. Best way to find out if you are ready is to try a table of 3/6 while you are also playing 2/4 and see how you do. If you get clobbered, you aren't ready, if you hold your own, you are.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I moved up after 20K hands of 2/4 at 5.5BB/100. I know this is at least partly due to variance, but after 20K hands of 3/6, I was only winning 1.5BB/100. I now play 3-4 tables of 2/4 and 3-4 tables of 3/6 at the same time. At 35K hands of 2/4 and 30K hands at 3/6 my WR is still 5BB/100 at 2/4 and is up to 1.9BB/100 at 3/6. I win more hourly at 2/4 than 3/6, but feel that moving up is a necessary progression in my game. What I don't know, given the sample size, is if I'm running good at 2/4 (likely) or running bad at 3/6 (hopefully).

[Festus22]

Thanks for all the excellent responses so far. Good stuff.

To address a few specific questions that were asked:

I play for fun maybe 12 - 15 hrs/wk. I have a full time job and have no desire whatsoever to do anything with poker other than what I'm doing now. The last day of each month, I tally up what's in Neteller and in various sites, subtract $2K and request a withdraw for the difference be it $200 or $2000. If I were to move up, I would bump this minimum to maybe $2.5K. Whatever I withdraw, I apply toward my mortgage as an extra principle payment. No more, no less.

Do I want to get better? Absolutely! Is exposing oneself to tougher play one way to accomplish that? Of course! That's one reason why I'm playing a lot of 6-max right now because I've always struggled with aggression and playing shorthanded and especially headsup. I've watched a lot of 3/6 and recognized these skills become increasingly important as someone already pointed out.

So I guess it boils down to how to make the most given a fixed time allocation, still have fun and get better all at the same time. I like the one suggestion of the half level move by playing two 2/4 tables and two 3/6's. I would likely start out with one 3/6 and two 2/4's just so I can focus more.

I think I'll give it a go. Why not? Never know until you try. Thanks again for the responses.

[tallstack]

[ QUOTE ]
3/6 may be a bit tougher, but the rake % is lower.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure that this is true, at least on Party? I have been comparing the two levels in PT and they are very close in rake % for the limited amount of hands in my database. So far, 2/4 has has a slightly lower rake %, but they are very close. Does someone have some long term rake % numbers to show the difference between these levels?

Dave S

[Kevin]

[ QUOTE ]
. Does someone have some long term rake % numbers to show the difference between these levels?


[/ QUOTE ]

2/4: 27,387 hands, average rake: $0.98, % of Pot 3.46%
3/6: 152,576 hands, average rake: $1.46, % of Pot 3.59%

Been a few months since I was in the 2/4 and the sample size is pretty small, but probably adequate sample for 3/6

[helpmeout]

Personally I think your winrate is a bit too weak. I think 3bb/100 is nothing special at $2/$4 so you should at least get it above this.

If you want to improve cut back on tables and concentrate on the game, you obviously dont need to make a living from it.

$2/$4 is a very easy game and yes $3/$6 is much harder its a totally different game.

$3/$6 is much more aggressive with less limpers, you will find that there arent as many fish.

The blind structure is also different and takes a bit of getting use to.

6max is good to learn, it'll help your play in late position as well as blind defense. The 6max games at the higher limits are also 10 times better than the full games so you better get some cheap experience.

[alekhine8]

[ QUOTE ]
Question for you though Stupendous. Why buy the second monitor when you can just ad more party skins? You may not be aware but there is a little registry trick to play more than 4 tables at a time with party software.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hold on a second - are you saying you can play more than four tables at a time on one Party skin?

[Festus22]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I think your winrate is a bit too weak. I think 3bb/100 is nothing special at $2/$4 so you should at least get it above this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dagnabit Help, that's what I was thinking when I made the original post and had convinced myself that I should take a shot at 3/6. Now you come along and ruin my nice little plan /images/graemlins/shocked.gif.

Seriously, I hear win rate quotes all the time and many claim 3 or 4 BB/100 at 2/4 routinely. Without any other reference, I take it at face value that their numbers are accurate and valid and quite impressive. Maybe it's a timing thing that I only play afternoons and early evenings EST. Who knows.

But back to my original dilema, 2.5/100 at 2/4 seems pretty pedestrian by 2+2 standards so maybe I'm back to the drawing board. Other thoughts on this subject?

[Victor]

2.5BB/100 is a great winrate. you are beating the games and beating them substantially. this shows that you have working knowledge of poker basics and are able to make adjustments.

so, when you sit down, will you immediately be a winning be a winning 3-6 player? proly not, but no one is immediately a winning player in new environments. however, i do think that you will make the necessary adjustments that you will win very very quickly. if not, who cares, go back down to 2-4. so long as your bankroll size does not effect your lifestyle i think you should take as many shots as possible.

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]
2.5BB/100 is a great winrate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. 3+ is crushing the game, don't let anyone tell you different.

[helpmeout]

We are talking about $2/$4 arent we? not $15/$30.

The problem with a low winrate like that is when you move up to a tougher game your winrate will drop unless you improve significantly.

You might go from 2.5 to 1.5 or even less.

Festus how do you feel your game is going at $2/$4? Do you feel that the game is too easy and you need a new challenge or do you think you are just beating it and looking to make more money?

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2.5BB/100 is a great winrate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. 3+ is crushing the game, don't let anyone tell you different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also agreed. I'm sorry, but helpmeout continues to talk about beating 2/4 or 3/6 for 5 BB/100, and that's just ridiculous. I highly doubt anyone on here can beat either 2/4 or 3/6 for 5BB/100 in the long term, and anyone skilled enough to has no reason to play enough hands to have an adeqate sample size to prove it.

As for moving up.

Put it this way -- many have speculated that 2/4 may be juicier than 1/2, because 1/2 is unduly tight for some reason. My winrate in 16k hands at 1/2 is 2.4 BB/100. My winrate in 22k hands at 2/4 is .74 BB/100. My winrate in 9k hands at 3/6 is 2.52 BB/100.

It's been said before, I just think that this is a nice illustration. 10k hands is a small sample size -- I doubt that I'm really beating 3/6 for 2.5 BB. 20k hands is a small sample size -- I really REALLY doubt I'm beating 2/4 for only .75 BB. Most likely, my win-rate is somewhere around 2. But even after 65k hands over four levels, I can't say that with any solid degree of confidence.

If you're bankrolled and you're winning 2 BB/100 or so at 2/4, or if you feel your winrate is skewed because of a real bad streak (as I know happened twice in my 2/4 hands) then take a shot at 3/6. You can always retreat back to 2/4. I've done it multiple times, mostly because I occassionally withdrawn money and then have to replace it, or whatever. Just make sure to play it safe enough that you've got a roll of some kind. If 3/6 gets off to a bad start and you drop 50-100 BB, then take time to recuperate at 2/4.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I think your winrate is a bit too weak

[/ QUOTE ]
You also think that people shouldn't multi table unless they're winning >5 bb/100.

[ QUOTE ]
I think 3bb/100 is nothing special at $2/$4

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're wrong. Winning 3 BB/100 at 2/4 is playing very good poker. People seem to think 3 BB/100 is standard, it is not.

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to improve cut back on tables and concentrate on the game

[/ QUOTE ]
THis really isn't true in all cases. I've been playing 6 tables for my last 6Kish hands and its really helpes me to focus more. I had too much downtime playing 4 tables and it caused me to distract myself with other stuff. Playing 6 had made me focus a lot more.

[ QUOTE ]
$2/$4 is a very easy game and yes $3/$6 is much harder its a totally different game.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that 3/6 is ahrder than 2/4. I wouldn't say 3/6 is much harder or totally different. It's tighter, but not even by that much.

[ QUOTE ]
$3/$6 is much more aggressive with less limpers, you will find that there arent as many fish.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're overstating the degree to which this is true. It is, but not by as much as you claim.

[ QUOTE ]
The blind structure is also different and takes a bit of getting use to.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is the single most important factor in the switch. Very good point that needs to be emphasiazed mroe.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The blind structure is also different and takes a bit of getting use to.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is the single most important factor in the switch. Very good point that needs to be emphasiazed mroe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The 1/3 blind structure really has to give you pause on some of the hands you complete with, especially with the somewhat tight tables. Plenty of hands that I would automatically complete the SB with in .5/1 and 1/2, even 2/4, have to become a fold at times in 3/6. The "any two suited" rule is a good example of a rule that doesn't always apply anymore -- I won't complete 92s in the SB playing 3/6 unless there've been more limpers than normal for a 3/6 game.

[helpmeout]

I dont talk about beating $2/$4 or $3/$6 for 5bb/100 my point was that if you cant beat it for that much you need to improve your game.

4bb/100 is a good winrate at $2/$4 and 3bb/100 is a good winrate at $3/$6.

[Evan]

Any 2 suited is pretty awful at 3/6.

I have never completed with 92s ever at 3/6.

[Evan]

4 bb/100 is amazing at 2/4. Its not good. Its f[/i]ucking amazing.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont talk about beating $2/$4 or $3/$6 for 5bb/100 my point was that if you cant beat it for that much you need to improve your game.

4bb/100 is a good winrate at $2/$4 and 3bb/100 is a good winrate at $3/$6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, didn't mean to insinuate that you had claimed you were beating it for that amount. I was referring to exactly this, the idea that if a player isn't beating 2/4 for 5 BB/100 then he needs to work on his game.

Which is simultaneously preposterous and correct. Because a player should always be working on his game. But winrate is dependent on many factors, including how many tables you play and how many tables you are capable of competently playing. Someone beating 2/4 for 3 BB/100 may not be ready for 3/6, while someone beating it for 2.5 BB/100 may totally be ready. What's their sample size? Are they multitabling? What kind of effect does that have on their winrate? Are they taking detailed notes, or at least using PT import and GameTime/PlayerView? Have they datamined the next limit? Are they willing to drop back down if they aren't good enough at first, or if they hit some bad variance?

So many factors. And I maintain that this 5 BB/100 figure you're throwing around as a benchmark for being a good player is ridiculous. 5 BB/100 is unfreakingbelievable and probably only sustainable under optimal one-table conditions.

[helpmeout]

Dont fool yourself into thinking that playing 6 tables helps you focus more.

If you have good focus you can play 1-2 tables without getting bored.

Sounds like you are an action junky, this is a bad habit to pickup when it comes to gambling.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Any 2 suited is pretty awful at 3/6.

I have never completed with 92s ever at 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many limpers would it take you to complete with 92s in 3/6?

I'm gonna say that with four limpers plus the BB, I'd probably complete half the time. Five limpers and I'd definitely complete. Obviously this would also depend on my reads of these limpers... I'm not sure what I'd prefer they be, but I'm sure that I'd be hesitant if 4 or 5 TAA players limped and I"m sitting there with 92s. But five limpers and a blind, can't fold 92s, right?

I can't imagine completing with less than four limpers and the BB.

[bpb]

[ QUOTE ]

But back to my original dilema, 2.5/100 at 2/4 seems pretty pedestrian by 2+2 standards so maybe I'm back to the drawing board. Other thoughts on this subject?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you move up, and you aren't ready, you'll lose some $$$ and gain some valuable experience which will (hopefully) give you an idea of what you need to work on.

If you don't move up, and you are ready, you are losing $$ playing at the smallers stakes game.

I'd rather risk the former than the latter.

[Evan]

I was serious, I've never done it ever. I've probably played 50Kish 3/6 hands and I've never done it. Playing too loose in the blinds at 3/6 is probably the most common mistake in that game. IMO playing 92s ever is a mistake there.

[Six_of_One]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any 2 suited is pretty awful at 3/6.

I have never completed with 92s ever at 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many limpers would it take you to complete with 92s in 3/6?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with Evan on this one...I've never completed in 3/6 with a hand like 92s. Basically, my own personal guideline is that if I'd play it from the button, I'll complete the blind, but otherwise I fold. Maybe I'd play 92s with like 7 limpers ahead of me, but that's never happened to me.

[BaronVonCP]

It is my opinion that the 3/6 and the 2/4 games aren't that difficult. I would think that your winrates would be comparable. Even if your $ rate goes down a little bit, you will learn to adjust.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont fool yourself into thinking that playing 6 tables helps you focus more.

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly I've already been fooled.

[ QUOTE ]
If you have good focus you can play 1-2 tables without getting bored.

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly my focus is poor.

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you are an action junky, this is a bad habit to pickup when it comes to gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly my habits are inadequate.

[null]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. The 1/3 blind structure really has to give you pause on some of the hands you complete with, especially with the somewhat tight tables. Plenty of hands that I would automatically complete the SB with in .5/1 and 1/2, even 2/4, have to become a fold at times in 3/6. The "any two suited" rule is a good example of a rule that doesn't always apply anymore -- I won't complete 92s in the SB playing 3/6 unless there've been more limpers than normal for a 3/6 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

In SSH Miller suggests only completing hands in the SB that you would play on the button in a 1/3 blind structure game.

[sthief09]

hey, remember when you said you never wanted to leave .5/1? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Evan]

Funny, I was actually gonna say that (now I know why I guess /images/graemlins/smile.gif). I would never paly 92s from the button, hence I would never play it anywhere.

[ErrantNight]

Are you playing 3/6? Or 2/4, or some other game where the small blind if half of the big... In any game where the small blind is LESS than half of the big blind... you have to tighten up your small blind play CONSIDERABLY.

For example: would you play 92s on the button against 4 and the big blind?

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing 3/6? Or 2/4, or some other game where the small blind if half of the big... In any game where the small blind is LESS than half of the big blind... you have to tighten up your small blind play CONSIDERABLY.

For example: would you play 92s on the button against 4 and the big blind?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've mostly played .5/1 - 2/4 online, as well as some 2/4 and 5/10 live. Out of probably 80,000 total limit hands I've ever played, 7/8ths are in a 1/2 blind structure. I have played some 3/6, and I do tighten up considerably. I doubt I've ever played 92s or somesuch, just because the game would have to be extremely loose-passive to get enough limpers, and Party's 3/6 just isn't passive enough for that to happen.

That's why I brought it up -- I've tightened up my SB play, but for the most part I haven't had too many close PF calls anyway. This was more curious speculation than anything.

[Evan]

Playing too tight out of the SB in 3/6 is pretty hard to do IMO.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing too tight out of the SB in 3/6 is pretty hard to do IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say I played too tight, I said I tightened up considerably. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I've long known that I'm a mediocre poker player compared to people on these boards. :-p

That's why I mostly just sit and read, read, read... planning to devour some archival action over winter break.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
didn't say I played too tight

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you didn't say that. I meant that playing uber-tight is very important. I guess I don't write that well. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
didn't say I played too tight

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you didn't say that. I meant that playing uber-tight is very important. I guess I don't write that well. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Or I can't read. One of the two.

On the bright side, your avatar is pink, and that makes me happy.

[Avatar]

No. I'm saying you can add more skins. I play 4 tables on party and 4 tables on empire at once.

[tallstack]

Thanks for the info, Kevin.

My numbers are very close to yours (3.50% at 2/4 and 3.60% at 3/6). I guess that the number of unraked hands in 2/4 outweighs the number of maximum raked hands in 3/6.

Dave S

[Festus22]

[ QUOTE ]
hey, remember when you said you never wanted to leave .5/1? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You would have to bring that up. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Good thing you did though because it remainds me of how fickle this game is and sometimes my mindset goes right along with it.

One day you're thinking I'll just play this level, make $x and live happily ever after. The next it's like I'm bored and need a new challenge. Then it's I have no clue how to play this game after getting rivered for what seems like to 50th straight time followed by the I'm invincible hot streak.

This has been a interesting thread with some varied opinions. I guess I was hoping for some magic formula that says if this, then should win at that. Kind of like if a AAA player is hitting .250, then it's likely he won't succeed in the majors so why move up. If he's hitting .350, then he should have a good chance. But since this is voluntary, why the heck not. No more paralysis by analyis. Allocating 50 BB's for trial #1. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Thanks all!

[sthief09]

you worry too much. 3/6 isn't that much different than 2/4. it swingier and there are more good players. that's about it. you're going to do fine.

[mistrpug]

I just made the jump myself and I find 3/6 to be a significantly tougher than 2/4. The preflop aggression is the biggest thing. At 2/4, my VP$IP was around 20. At 3/6 so far, it's down to about 15. At every level up to this point, I was trying to lower my VP by eliminating marginal hands. Now I'm actually trying to find spots where I'm folding possible profitable hands.

I also have found that I have many more downward swings at 3/6, at least so far. One last thing is that when I made the jump, I started paying a lot more attention to table selection. At 2/4 and under, I would just take the first free seat. Now I check my notes at the tables before I sit down.

[Rico Suave]

Sthief:

[ QUOTE ]
you worry too much. 3/6 isn't that much different than 2/4. it swingier and there are more good players. that's about it. you're going to do fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen!

Festus, you should move up.....you will do fine. I beat the 3/6, and I suck!

--Rico

[Octopus]

I am currently moving around between 2/4, 3/6 and 5/10, mostly 3/6. Prior to playing at 3/6 (and especially 5/10) I spent very little time on table selection and very little time examining the play of my opponents beyond basic pokertracker stats. At a 2/4 table, I would sit anywhere. Occassionally, the table would be too tight and I would leave. Otherwise I would accumulate statistics (and occassionally notes) on my opponents as I played and would go from there.

At 3/6 (and again, especially at 5/10), I much more frequently look for players I know, or I just open a bunch of tables and let Pokertracker accumulate statistics before I sit down. I also pay attention to where at the table my opponents are sitting. Maybe it is my imagination, but I have found that the move above 2/4 is where game selection takes on meaningful importance.

[which]

test message

[sfwusc]

Why I totally agree with 92s.

I have played some weird crap out of the sb. J4s and such. If you have 5-6 limpers it is hard to fold J4s. You are getting 8.5 to 1. You have to think you are a better post flop player than everyone limping though.

Take this Q3 hand from the button(rule of thumbs play anything in the small blind that you would play from the button)

Paradise Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB

[sfwusc]

Paradise Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

You can play some what looser out of the SB.
1. you can play post flop
2. you can let go of a semi hit on the flop.
3. you know it will be paid off when it hits.

[UseThePeenEnd]

Even good results are not in themselves preparation. In 18K hands single and (recently) double-tabling at 2/ 4 Ive had 4.53BB/100 including downswings of 150BB, 80BB and 90BB. The sample size is suspect, I know.

In my move to 3/ 6 I was essentially even in 2K hands and went back to 2/ 4. I know that the sample is infinitesimal, but I knew enough to look at my data and post about them. Several persons here correctly and politely suggested that I had gone weenie, which I denied at the time but later recognized as a correct assessment.

You have to be comfortable with the limit. I'll just have to have a little more experience and a bigger roll (although how any more above 800BB will make me comfortable, I cant figure). Some more datamining wont hurt, either. Just adding in a single table at the higher limit if you are going to multitable sounds like a good way to get comfortable with this, and I might try that myself.

[college_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
Even good results are not in themselves preparation. In 18K hands single and (recently) double-tabling at 2/ 4 Ive had 4.53BB/100 including downswings of 150BB, 80BB and 90BB. The sample size is suspect, I know.

In my move to 3/ 6 I was essentially even in 2K hands and went back to 2/ 4. I know that the sample is infinitesimal, but I knew enough to look at my data and post about them. Several persons here correctly and politely suggested that I had gone weenie, which I denied at the time but later recognized as a correct assessment.

You have to be comfortable with the limit. I'll just have to have a little more experience and a bigger roll (although how any more above 800BB will make me comfortable, I cant figure). Some more datamining wont hurt, either. Just adding in a single table at the higher limit if you are going to multitable sounds like a good way to get comfortable with this, and I might try that myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

My BB/100 was has been anywhere from over 4/100 to under 1/100 through 80,000 hands. Your winrate at 18,000 hands is not your true winrate, just as my BB/100 is not my true winrate through 80,000 hands. If you obsess about your winrate then you are gonna be very disturbed when your monster downswing comes.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
My BB/100 was has been anywhere from over 4/100 to under 1/100 through 80,000 hands. Your winrate at 18,000 hands is not your true winrate, just as my BB/100 is not my true winrate through 80,000 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's possible that your true win rate (i.e., your expectation) really did vary by a few BB/100 during different 80k blocks of hands. This could be because the games were tougher at some times than others (for example, due to seasonal factors like when school is in session and the financial effects of holiday seasons), or due to changes in your play that you made over time (some that may have worked and others that didn't) or differences in your mental/ emotional state during different time periods, or any of a number of other factors. The fact that you have big differences in observed win rate between different 80k chunks of hands doesn't prove that 80k isn't enough to pin down your win rate because we don't know that your true win rate was constant.

[MisterNatural]

Tighten up a lot in early position when playing 3/6. You will pay more bets per street than you will at 2/4 so your post flop decsisions become more crucial. There are a lot more rocks and tight aggressives per table. Don't autopilot the same way you play 2/4 or 6max. Start with 1 or 2 tables and then add one at a time if you've got a handle on things. Jumping right into 4 tabling a new level the way you've been playing an old one is a recipe for disaster. Give yourself some time to get a feel for the game and fold more than you're used to for the first week or two and watch how the action unfolds. Get position on the maniac or consider leaving the table. Hope this helps. These adjustments have helped me have a better 2nd run at 3/6 than my 1st.